elementary-dev-community team mailing list archive

[Pál Dorogi <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx>]

1.) Checked, thx.
2.) Yep, that's correct.
3.) Yep, that's nearly same what I have already said (Toolkits are
quite stable, and if there is any bug in toolkit we need to get them
fixed (or have some workarounds))

I just talked about TDD /wo GUI Testing as both of them can be
independent from each other, means no any (not really true) dependency
between them (TDD is testing using Unit test, BDD is customer/user
related acceptance test).



On 20 May 2013 14:31, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
<sergey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 1) We have quite a few behavioral testing frameworks (see the doc or pitti's
> session)
> 2) BDD is language-independent, it only cares about the toolkit
> 3) We haven't yet run into any toolkit bugs AFAIK, but when we do, we'd have
> to get them fixed all the same.
>
>
> 2013/5/20 Pál Dorogi <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> Yep, you are right, we need both. but we currently do not have any GUI
>> Testing framework /w Vala. Also, I meant by "we do not need any GUI
>> test which is very hard to achieve" that  we do not need  to have any
>> GUI Test to start applying TDD and if there is any bug in the toolkit
>> which would affect the app then we cannot do much about that.
>>
>> On 19 May 2013 22:34, Jaap Broekhuizen <jaapz.b@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> So, using OOP (and the other things I talked about) we can separate
>> > the GUI code from the Business Logic (loose coupling and others),
>> > therefore we do not need any GUI Test which is very hard to achieve.
>> > Also, I would say the Toolkits are quite stable and have some strict
>> > APIs, but if there is a bug in any Toolkit, we cannot do much but wait
>> > for their fix.
>> >
>> > I don't agree. GUI/Behavioral testing is not meant to unittest the GUI
>> > framework, it is to test whether the GUI is behaving after the
>> > specification. You are basically testing the User Experience
>> > automatically
>> > (not completely true, but close enough).
>> >
>> > We will need Unit Testing and Behavioral Testing both.
>> >
>> > Met vriendelijke groet,
>> >
>> > Jaap Broekhuizen
>> >
>> > Aquamarijnstraat 273
>> > 9743 PG  Groningen
>> >
>> > jaap.broekhuizen.nu
>> > jaapz.b@xxxxxxxxx
>> > 06 - 39 81 36 97
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Pál Dorogi <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I have read it, but, it's not really what I talked about. The facts,
>> >> that we need nice GUI Apps in eOS which should be written in Vala.
>> >> Vala is a real OOP language therefore we could use it writing apps
>> >> using OOP principles and can forget all the old fashioned programming
>> >> in C things which is still very common (I grew up /w C, loved and
>> >> still love it, but not for GUI apps) in Linux GUI programming.
>> >>
>> >> So, using OOP (and the other things I talked about) we can separate
>> >> the GUI code from the Business Logic (loose coupling and others),
>> >> therefore we do not need any GUI Test which is very hard to achieve.
>> >> Also, I would say the Toolkits are quite stable and have some strict
>> >> APIs, but if there is a bug in any Toolkit, we cannot do much but wait
>> >> for their fix.
>> >> So, we can focus on the stability of the App as we do not need to
>> >> really care about the GUI as it can live without our layers.
>> >>
>> >> Also, the bugs, for example, if we do not use OOP principles and if
>> >> there is a bug in an app, it could affect all the code base if it's
>> >> not well structured (lot of "hard" cross dependencies to the other
>> >> Objects, for example lot of "using" in the source codes where we
>> >> should not use that/those module(s)/object(s) at all and some other
>> >> smell-code things. And a bit later an other bug appears, and an other,
>> >> and one more.
>> >> So, how would we fix it? How could we work on it parallel if my
>> >> work/fix would affect to the whole app?
>> >> It would be a real mess in solving the issue as a lot of cross
>> >> dependencies are across all the code base. In my experience it would
>> >> be a nightmare. With TDD we can use tests for the trivial bug hunting
>> >> and also we can create a test method(s) for the newly appeared bugs
>> >> and we could fix them more easily than in the current development
>> >> cycles, of course if we structured the app to handle these situations.
>> >>
>> >> But, keep in mind these things I talked about (TDD, Design Patterns,
>> >> SOLID etc.)  are not the Holy Grail for everything, but some helpers
>> >> which can make our life much easier if we fully understand and are
>> >> able to implement them, which could be as everything can be found in
>> >> the Internet and we have a nice programming language: Vala which is
>> >> capable for implement those things.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 19 May 2013 19:56, Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
>> >> <sergey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> > To everyone interested in implementing automated testing and QA
>> >> > procedures I
>> >> > highly recommend reading logs Martin Pitt's Ubuntu Dev Week sessions
>> >> > on
>> >> > the
>> >> > topic. They can be found at
>> >> > http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/01/31/%23ubuntu-classroom.html, his
>> >> > IRC
>> >> > nick
>> >> > is "pitti".
>> >> >
>> >> > I've added some things he mentioned to our document
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cTsWpeT0h4FD81T-xs4bEWlALsO__j3rL1A7iB-SWz0/edit),
>> >> > especially on behavioral testing, but I still highly recommend
>> >> > reading
>> >> > the
>> >> > original session.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 2013/4/29 Jaap Broekhuizen <jaapz.b@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Pal, that looks very interesting, please do upload it to launchpad
>> >> >> so
>> >> >> we
>> >> >> can have a closer look :)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In te mean time, I have created a google document to have a central
>> >> >> point
>> >> >> of investigation for elementary automated testing. Feel free to add
>> >> >> information to the doc whenever you can, but please keep it clean!
>> >> >> :)
>> >> >> You
>> >> >> can find it here:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cTsWpeT0h4FD81T-xs4bEWlALsO__j3rL1A7iB-SWz0/edit
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I haven't found any BDD frameworks yet, but I have found some
>> >> >> interesting
>> >> >> testing frameworks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think I'll set up a testing branch for granite some day later this
>> >> >> week,
>> >> >> maybe test out the different frameworks so we can see what suits us
>> >> >> best. If
>> >> >> anyone else wants to start setting up a branch like that, you are of
>> >> >> course
>> >> >> free to do so ;)
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Jaap
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 3:08 AM, Pál Dorogi <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hi,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> You can use cmake for unit test as it supports GLib's test. I use
>> >> >>> MonoDevelop/Xamarin Studio for developing for huge projects
>> >> >>> coexists
>> >> >>> /w cmake (as MD/XS does not support cmake). MD is for rapid
>> >> >>> development but there is no internal Unit to support vala but C#
>> >> >>> (Nunit) and some other languages. So, I run some cmake command
>> >> >>> before
>> >> >>> and after MD build which runs cmake for cmake build and run test.
>> >> >>> For
>> >> >>> example:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> before build: cmake .. in /build/ dir
>> >> >>> after build in MD: run build/test/unit_test
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I added CMakeLists.txt into my MD project and I just need to sync
>> >> >>> betwwen MD and that file when I add or remove a Vala source file
>> >> >>> into/from the MD.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I do not know how would it works /w launchpad as I do not know how
>> >> >>> its
>> >> >>> packaging works /w cmake's unit test, but I think it should work.
>> >> >>> You just need add some stanza in the project's root CMakeList.txt
>> >> >>> like
>> >> >>> this, but it's not simpe as it's using some other features like
>> >> >>> external projects and so on.
>> >> >>> set (PROJECT_TEST tests)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ...
>> >> >>> enable_testing (true)
>> >> >>> add_subdirectory (${PROJECT_TEST})
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> and add create some CMakeList.txt in the ./test dir
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ###############################################################################
>> >> >>> # Sources
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ###############################################################################
>> >> >>> set (UNIT_TESTS unit_tests)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> set (VALA_SOURCES
>> >> >>> Model/Address.vala
>> >> >>> Model/Person.vala
>> >> >>> Model/Gender.vala
>> >> >>> ValidatorTest.vala
>> >> >>>     TestMain.vala
>> >> >>> )
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> set (PKG_DEPS gtk+-3.0 glib-2.0 gee-1.0)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ################################################################################
>> >> >>> # set (CMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE ON)
>> >> >>> set (CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_SUFFIXES .so)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> # External Packages definitions.
>> >> >>> set (EXTERN_PROJ dafunit)
>> >> >>> set (EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR src)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> set (INTERN_PROJ dafvalidation)
>> >> >>> set (INTERN_SOURCE_DIR ${PROJECT_SOURCE})
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> include (ExternalProject)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ExternalProject_Add (${EXTERN_PROJ}
>> >> >>>     #PREFIX ../../${EXTERN_PROJ}
>> >> >>>     SOURCE_DIR ../../../${EXTERN_PROJ}
>> >> >>>     BINARY_DIR ${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_PROJ}/build
>> >> >>>     INSTALL_DIR ""
>> >> >>>     UPDATE_COMMAND ""
>> >> >>>     PATCH_COMMAND ""
>> >> >>>     INSTALL_COMMAND ""
>> >> >>> )
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ExternalProject_Get_Property(${EXTERN_PROJ} BINARY_DIR)
>> >> >>> include_directories (${BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR})
>> >> >>> include_directories (${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${INTERN_SOURCE_DIR})
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> # PkgConfig
>> >> >>> find_package (PkgConfig)
>> >> >>> find_package (GObjectIntrospection 0.9.12)
>> >> >>> include (GObjectIntrospectionMacros)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> pkg_check_modules(DEPS REQUIRED ${PKG_DEPS})
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> set (CFLAGS ${DEPS_CFLAGS} ${DEPS_CFLAGS_OTHER})
>> >> >>> add_definitions (${CFLAGS})
>> >> >>> set (LIBS ${DEPS_LIBRARIES})
>> >> >>> set(LIB_PATHS ${DEPS_LIBRARY_DIRS})
>> >> >>> link_directories(${LIB_PATHS})
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> # Does not work set (ENV{PKG_CONFIG_PATH}
>> >> >>> ${EXTERNAL_BINARY_DIR}/src)
>> >> >>> vala_precompile (VALA_C
>> >> >>> ${VALA_SOURCES}
>> >> >>> PACKAGES
>> >> >>> ${PKG_DEPS}
>> >> >>>     posix
>> >> >>> CUSTOM_VAPIS
>> >> >>>     ${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${INTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${INTERN_PROJ}.vapi
>> >> >>> ${BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${EXTERN_PROJ}.vapi
>> >> >>> OPTIONS
>> >> >>> )
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> add_executable (${UNIT_TESTS} ${VALA_C})
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> # Does not work add_dependencies (unit_tests dafvalidation)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> target_link_libraries(${UNIT_TESTS} ${LIBS})
>> >> >>> target_link_libraries(${UNIT_TESTS}
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ${BINARY_DIR}/${EXTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_PREFIXES}${EXTERN_PROJ}${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_SUFFIXES})
>> >> >>> target_link_libraries(${UNIT_TESTS}
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> ${CMAKE_BINARY_DIR}/${INTERN_SOURCE_DIR}/${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_PREFIXES}${INTERN_PROJ}${CMAKE_FIND_LIBRARY_SUFFIXES})
>> >> >>> add_test(${UNIT_TESTS} ${CMAKE_CURRENT_BINARY_DIR}/${UNIT_TESTS})
>> >> >>> ###################################################
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I am going to upload it to lp so, if you would like to have a look
>> >> >>> at
>> >> >>> it just let me know and that case I will uploadid it on some day in
>> >> >>> this week
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> On 29 April 2013 07:19, Lochlan Bunn <loklaan@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>> > I have read alot about TTD, both in school and in persistent
>> >> >>> > articles.
>> >> >>> > I've
>> >> >>> > used it to develop a small gui based game, and I can say that I
>> >> >>> > liked
>> >> >>> > the
>> >> >>> > flow once I was used to it. I used JUnit & Eclipse, and that was
>> >> >>> > all
>> >> >>> > that
>> >> >>> > was needed the whole time.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > So when it comes to elementary dev, and vala/gtk/linux dev in
>> >> >>> > general,
>> >> >>> > I'd
>> >> >>> > be interested in reading/learning how to write unit test (suites)
>> >> >>> > for
>> >> >>> > vala
>> >> >>> > in respects to both CI, a la Launchpad, packaging, and moreso in
>> >> >>> > an
>> >> >>> > IDE.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > On 27 April 2013 07:48, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> I agree wholeheartedly. And as Cassidy mentioned, we can use
>> >> >>> >> scratch
>> >> >>> >> as
>> >> >>> >> the incubation project.  Would any devs be interested in
>> >> >>> >> volunteering
>> >> >>> >> to
>> >> >>> >> learn? Jaap, would you be interested in helping instruct?
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> On Apr 26, 2013 3:25 PM, "Jaap Broekhuizen" <jaapz.b@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> I also think implementing Behavorial testing (applying BDD) is
>> >> >>> >>> very
>> >> >>> >>> relevant for us, as we are focussing a lot on user interface
>> >> >>> >>> and
>> >> >>> >>> interaction.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> So imo we should start on a project which we can use as a
>> >> >>> >>> playground
>> >> >>> >>> for
>> >> >>> >>> both unit an behavorial testing.
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Does anyone know of good vala bdd frameworks?
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Jaap
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> Op 26 apr. 2013 22:21 schreef "Cassidy James"
>> >> >>> >>> <cassidy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> >>> het volgende:
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> I don't think we need any convincing; everything I've heard
>> >> >>> >>>> from
>> >> >>> >>>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> devs is that we need to do this. It's just a matter of
>> >> >>> >>>> figuring
>> >> >>> >>>> out
>> >> >>> >>>> a common
>> >> >>> >>>> way of doing it.
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> Craig, a relatively small/new project that could use testing
>> >> >>> >>>> is
>> >> >>> >>>> the
>> >> >>> >>>> new
>> >> >>> >>>> Scratch or even the new work going on with Contractor. Both
>> >> >>> >>>> are
>> >> >>> >>>> (from what I
>> >> >>> >>>> understand) fresh codebases and now might be the time to work
>> >> >>> >>>> on
>> >> >>> >>>> tests. I
>> >> >>> >>>> recommend you hop into #elementary-dev and work with the devs
>> >> >>> >>>> on
>> >> >>> >>>> getting
>> >> >>> >>>> some tests worked out.
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> Regards,
>> >> >>> >>>> Cassidy
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> On Apr 26, 2013 11:04 AM, "Pál Dorogi" <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> I dunno, I am a newbie here.
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> On 26 April 2013 22:24, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>> > That's exactly what I'd like to know: how can I help. I can
>> >> >>> >>>>> > try
>> >> >>> >>>>> > and
>> >> >>> >>>>> > post
>> >> >>> >>>>> > some tutorials, but I'd like to know who is interested and
>> >> >>> >>>>> > what
>> >> >>> >>>>> > the
>> >> >>> >>>>> > development community already knows.
>> >> >>> >>>>> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> > On Apr 26, 2013 6:39 AM, "Pál Dorogi"
>> >> >>> >>>>> > <pal.dorogi@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >>> >>>>> > wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> Hi Craig,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> I agree 100% /w you, but I think you should write some
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> tutorials
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> and
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> post them in your blog, if you have any. But in my opinion
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> that
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> the
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> human beings do not like "re-learn" things and the real
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> OOP,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> Design
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> Patterns, SOLID, TDD etc. etc. are very steep and time for
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> a
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> non-real
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> OOP/DP experienced Programmer/Developer.
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> Also, the learning curve is very steep for these advanced
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> stuffs
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> and
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> needs long time to get there. But, nobody would not know
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> how
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> good
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> are
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> they until haven't learnt and used those stuffs, would
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> they?.:)
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> I did sine similar things, getting some new fresh things
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> (TDD,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> MvvM/Presentation Model Design Pattern) to programming in
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> Vala
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> ((http://ilapstech.blogspot.com/2013/04/advanced-programming-in-vala-dafs.html)
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> but you should keep in mind that this kind of new things
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> (TDD,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> DP,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> SOLDI, MVVM etc. etc.) are like evolution (evolution in
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> Programming)
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> which needs some time to get it succeeded (or failed).:)
>> >> >>> >>>>> >>
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> On 26 April 2013 20:36, Craig <weberc2@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Hello everyone,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > I'm just leaving San Jose after having spent a week
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > listening
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > to a
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > lot
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > smart people talk about, among other things, Test Driven
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Development
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > (TDD).
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > I know I keep harping on this, but among the people who
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > write
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > the
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > coolest,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > best software (and other average software folks) TDD is
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > seen
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > as
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > absolutely
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > critical. I can't point to anything other discipline in
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > the
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > software
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > world
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > that is of comparable importance. And here's why:
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > When we start writing software, we can manage it with a
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > couple
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > developers, perhaps all the way up through the first
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > release;
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > however,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > as we
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > add features, our software becomes more complex. It's
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > hard
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > for
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > us
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > to
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > remember what parts of our programs worked well before
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > and
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > what
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > parts
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > are
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > broken. We often make changes to the underlying
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > architecture
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > to
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > facilitate a
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > new feature, but we're not exactly sure if in doing so,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > we
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > broke
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > an
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > existing
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > feature. And we'll of course do a little ad hoc manual
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > testing
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > to
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > verify
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > that things still work, but we're only going to really
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > check
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > 5-10%
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > the
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > code that we most suspect would break. And even if we do
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > power
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > through,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > we're only going to ever check 60-70% of the code, and
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > it's
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > all a
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > very
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > slow,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > unreliable process. Soon we spend all of our time
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > fighting
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > bugs
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > and we
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > can
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > never get around to any interesting work. Does this
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > pattern
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > sound
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > familiar?
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > With TDD, you write a simple, small test for every piece
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > interesting
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > code
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > you write, and every time you rebuild the project, all
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > your
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > old
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > tests
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > run. If you're writing good tests, you can be assured
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > that
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > all
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > of
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > your
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > code
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > works as you intend it to every single time you build,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > and
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > if
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > someone
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > merges
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > in a bug, it will be caught immediately (and the test
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > that
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > fails
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > will
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > give
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > you some good information about what broke/where the bug
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > is
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > hiding).
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Of course, it takes time to write tests; however, it's
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > still
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > much
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > less
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > time
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > than you would spend debugging your code. Furthermore,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > when
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > you
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > write
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > tests
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > before you write your production code, you are forced to
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > design
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > your
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > code
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > modularly just to make it testable. Among software
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > professionals,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > TDD is
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > seen as the fastest way to write software. I mean, Luna
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > has
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > been
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > 90%
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > complete for 90% of its development cycle, and this is a
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > common
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > pattern
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > in
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > the software world.
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > With all of this in mind, I'd like to know how I can
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > help
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > you
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > guys
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > start
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > practicing TDD? If this hasn't persuaded you, I'd
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > appreciate
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > it if
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > you
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > would
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > respond and give your perspective so we can talk about
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > it.
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > I'm
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > very
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > interested in seeing you guys continue to put out great
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > software,
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > but
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > I'm
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > concerned that as you write more code, you're going to
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > be
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > creating
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > more
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > for
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > yourselves to maintain and the amount of time you spend
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > writing
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > new
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > software
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > is going to drop off exponentially as the complexity (as
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > complexity
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > produces
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > bugs) increases.
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Please let me know if/how I can help you.
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Craig
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > --
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Mailing list:
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Post to     :
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > Unsubscribe :
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >
>> >> >>> >>>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>> --
>> >> >>> >>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>>>> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>> --
>> >> >>> >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>>> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>> --
>> >> >>> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >> --
>> >> >>> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > --
>> >> >>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> > Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >> >> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
>> >> > OS architect @ elementary
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
> OS architect @ elementary