kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Adam Wolf <adamwolf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Collin,

If you have any of the docs/scripting around packaging Python along with
it, I urge you to post it somewhere.  After the stable release, I'm going
to see how much work/if it'd be worth anything for me to get KiCad in the
Mac App Store.

Adam Wolf

On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Collin Anderson <metacollin@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

> Hi, this is kind of an old message, but I posted about this some time ago,
> before there were even OS X nightlies.  I mentioned that this would rear
> its head eventually - as to when, that's for Apple to not tell us until far
> too short a time before it happens, as they tend to do.   The worry of
> python2.7 vanishing is not unfounded, especially in light of changes Apple
> made to it's documentation around 10.9.
>
>  I'll summarize the key point
>
> As of 10.9 and onward, Apple's deployment requirements state that any .app
> bundle that can be scripted/execute scripts itself in a way that makes OS X
> API calls (so any GUI stuff) must not use any system provided interpreters
> and instead embed its own copy of any interpreters used and any extensions
> link to it.  Yes, you read correct, if your .app is scriptable via python,
> you have to include your own copy of python specific to that .app within
> it.  I did this successfully with KiCad, its relatively straightforward,
> but does require some tweaks to the build system, some extra scripts
> (mostly to shave down the size of the python framework, but even then it
> adds ~80MB of bloat) and carefully compiling python such that it links to
> the newest OS X SDK you wish to support, but with the
> -mmacosx-version-min=... flag set to the oldest version of the SDK you wish
> to support.  You can't embed the system's interpreter as it is compiled
> only for that 10.x revision.
>
> This is a requirement for inclusion in the App Store, so KiCad has no need
> of doing this, but that change is fairly worrying, as these documentation
> changes tend to be good indicators of where the fickle wind that is Apple's
> developer policies may be blowing soon.  :).
>
> Oh, and I recall that wxwidgets totally failed to handle
> -mmacos-verison-min correctly so you have to manually set some defines,
> MACOSX_DEPLOYMENT_TARGET I believe.
>
> It's a mess.  I say, lets include python scripting but not worry about
> embedding it.  FYI, I have a friend who refuses to upgrade from 10.6, so I
> provide him special KiCad builds that are compatible and python scriptable
> over the span of 10.6-10.11 (seriously).  Weak linking to the system's
> python, even across such a wide gap of OS X versions, has not caused us any
> issues and indeed, the same .app bundle of KiCad can happily work, python
> scripting and all, across 10.6, 10.7, 10.8, 10.9, 10.10, and 10.11.  Apple
> has been very careful to maintain compatibility with all prior versions of
> python for years now.  If you check, python2.7 is still built with gcc
> 4.2.1 and stdlibc++, despite the rest of the OS using libc++ and clang,
> entirely to preserve that compatibility.
>
> For now at least, they seem pretty dedicated to continuing it.  Python is
> particularly huge amongst mac users, so it would cause a huge poop storm if
> they broke anything in regards to it heh.
>
> > On Oct 2, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Adam Wolf <adamwolf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> > I definitely see that there can be problems there.  I hope we can get
> most users without a lot more work.
> >
> > It would not be a huge amount of work for me to make a different build
> for each OS X version every night.
> >
> > Adam Wolf
> > Cofounder and Engineer
> > Wayne and Layne, LLC
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Bernhard Stegmaier <
> stegmaier@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > I think your build didn’t work correctly for me because the paths were
> just wrong before my patch, so no plugins were found.
> > I’ll retest when a new build has been made with the new paths.
> > I guess it is not a problem for now.
> >
> > The rest about incompatibilities is just speculation, maybe also just my
> lack of real knowledge how python works under the hood.
> >
> > In extreme, imagine you built on a (imaginary) OS X 10.12 which only has
> python3 installed.
> > So, the app bundle will contain wxPython stuff (binary libs and python
> packages) built with (or, against) python3, but no python interpreter
> itself.
> > Now, imagine running this bundle on a 10.11 with python 2.7.
> > Will this work?
> > I don’t know.
> > If python wrt to the wxPython stuff doesn’t know such bad things like
> ABI changes in binary C++ world, it is maybe no problem at all.
> >
> > This example is of course not (yet?) reality, but I hope you get the
> point I am concerned about.
> > But maybe it is nothing to worry about at all…
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bernhard
> >
> >
> >> On 02 Oct 2015, at 21:42, Adam Wolf <adamwolf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Don't worry, Andy, I'm not going to stop the OS X dmg releases!
> >>
> >> If no one else gets to this soon, I will dig into this.  I need to find
> out why my build isn't working for Bernhard, and figure out the matrix of
> OS X release and Python version that is currently supported, and figure out
> if there's actually a gap.
> >>
> >> Adam Wolf
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Andy Peters <devel@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Oct 2, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Bernhard Stegmaier <
> stegmaier@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Of course, we could switch back to some package manager like
> home-brew or MacPorts on OS X, but you would lose the ability to just
> download and run an app bundle (everyone would have to “build” his own
> version - even if it is just a pre-built download). This is not very
> Apple-like (but again, that’s probably only a matter of taste).
> >>
> >> I would like to be the voice of MANY Mac users who don’t want to deal
> with a package manger (homebrew, MacPorts, whatever).  The ideal
> distribution format is a disk image from which the user drags the
> executable to any location. The next-to-ideal format is a standard OS X
> installer package.
> >>
> >> -a
> >>
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