kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Andrew Zonenberg <azonenberg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

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It still works if you adopt the approach fully. I make separate
components "POWER_INDUCTOR" etc that have one terminal a power input
and the other a power output.

On 06/02/16 09:55, André S. wrote:
> This may work when the output is directly connected to the net. But
> if you have some output/input filter behind it this will not work
> as expected, you still need the power flag then.
> 
> André
> 
> On 06.02.2016 18:29, Andrew Zonenberg wrote: I do the same thing -
> power flags and hidden pins are banned in my designs. To supply
> power to a net I set the "power output" flag on the pins of the
> connector going to the battery/power plug.
> 
> On 06/02/16 09:23, André S. wrote:
>>>> Ok, I see your point regarding not breaking old designs.
>>>> 
>>>> However: the current KiCad broke mine, since it does regard
>>>> hidden pins different than "the old KiCad" (around 2013). The
>>>> old KiCad connected a visible "hidden pin" only to the
>>>> connected net. The current KiCad still connects it to "VDD"
>>>> regardless of the connected net and therefore connects two
>>>> different named nets. Which then forbids the use of "VDD" for
>>>> a power net, when you use a KiCad library part with hidden
>>>> pins in your design and connect its power pin to a no-"VDD"
>>>> net.
>>>> 
>>>> BUT if I did "the right thing" right from start, KiCad would
>>>> have warned me, that I connected two "power nets". Which it
>>>> does when I place a "power flag" on each net. (Which is one
>>>> way where KiCad forces its "true way" where other tools have
>>>> the "power flag" built into the power net symbols.)
>>>> 
>>>> I learned my lesson on this one: do not use KiCad library
>>>> parts, create your own.
>>>> 
>>>> Regarding multiple names on (not power) nets. There was a 
>>>> discussion some time ago. If I remember correctly, most
>>>> people that use that feature would be OK with net-aliases
>>>> (which is what they use that feature for) and having a fixed
>>>> name on that net. Currently when a net has a name and you add
>>>> a new label it may occur that KiCad uses the new label name
>>>> for the net. In the PCB the trace then gets a new name, which
>>>> may not be what the user intended. Also with the current
>>>> implementation you may accidentally connect two nets and have
>>>> _no_ way to check this with ERC.
>>>> 
>>>> My proposal on this is: Newer KiCad versions can check for
>>>> multiple names on a net and raise an error/warning when it
>>>> sees one. Therefore the user has a way to see accidentally
>>>> connected nets. Regarding not breaking old designs: One way:
>>>> KiCad will need a dialog window where the user can add
>>>> aliases to the net to keep current functionality. This dialog
>>>> may be accessible from the ERC report window to give the user
>>>> a way to do it the "right way". Net aliases are then handled
>>>> like net labels but do not (re)define the name of the net in
>>>> the netlist. OR second way: The user ignores the 
>>>> error/warning and works as before.
>>>> 
>>>> André
>>>> 
>>>> On 06.02.2016 16:52, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>>>>> I would not have allowed that to be implemented.  One thing
>>>>> I try to avoid is forcing users down the "one true way"
>>>>> path of pcb design whenever possible.  I prefer to give
>>>>> users the flexibility to design as they see fit even if it
>>>>> means that kicad has a steeper learning curve. I don't
>>>>> pretend to be wise enough to know what the "one true way"
>>>>> is and I really don't like someone else forcing it upon me
>>>>> so it would be hypocritical of me to force it upon someone
>>>>> else.  If you are comfortable with hidden pins, use them.
>>>>> If not, don't.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2/6/2016 9:59 AM, Thor-Arne wrote:
>>>>>> I agree with Chris on the hidden pins issue, old design
>>>>>> should not be broken.
>>>>> That is also a no-no for the project.  One of the goals of
>>>>> kicad is to make every effort to maintain backwards
>>>>> compatibility.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> When it comes to net names I think they should be forced
>>>>>> to be unique.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anyway, are we going to collect features requests now?
>>>>>> Would it be better to have a wanted-feauture list on
>>>>>> github instead of the mail list so nothing gets lost?
>>>>> Take a look at the release 5 (current development cycle)
>>>>> road map. Maybe we can add it to one of the existing tasks
>>>>> where it makes sense. Please keep in mind, we cannot
>>>>> endlessly add tasks to the release 5 road map.  We need to
>>>>> be realistic about what we can achieve given our current
>>>>> manpower.  I can always add new tasks to the global road
>>>>> map for future dev cycles.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Pavlina Sent:
>>>>>> Saturday, February 06, 2016 3:30 PM To: André S. Cc:
>>>>>> KiCad Developers Subject: Re: [Kicad-developers]
>>>>>> Discussion: Hidden Pins, Net labels
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Eh. I agree 100% about hidden pins being Bad, anyone
>>>>>> using them surely should be tarred and feathered. But I'm
>>>>>> not sure it's our place to enforce good schematic drawing
>>>>>> practices. If people want to use KiCad to draw terrible,
>>>>>> horrible schematics, they'll find a way. Personally, I'm
>>>>>> *strongly* against breaking old projects, the feature
>>>>>> should be kept around at least as a legacy support
>>>>>> feature for old projects that are imported.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I just don't use hidden pins, they're strictly forbidden
>>>>>> in my libs and I would never use them for anything other
>>>>>> than implementing power symbols.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On the fence about net names.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 06, 2016 at 03:22:04PM +0100, André S.
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> this issues are still on my wishlist for KiCad: - Ban
>>>>>>> hidden Pins. - Disallow multiple labels on the same
>>>>>>> net. Especially the combination of those two is a
>>>>>>> source for non-obvious design bugs.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Wayne recently stated that now the planning for release
>>>>>>> 5 has started, so I just thought I bring it up again.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I wrote a blog entry why I think those two topics
>>>>>>> should be addressed, you can find it here (warning:
>>>>>>> wall of text ahead ;)): 
>>>>>>> http://transistorgrab.de/2016/02/05/why-hidden-pins-are-evil-and
- -ne
>
>>>>>>> 
ts-should-only-have-one-name/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
> I'm really interested that at least there is a definite conclusion
> for
>>>>>>> KiCad and that this conclusion is then put somewhere
>>>>>>> obvious in the documentation with all the pitfalls that
>>>>>>> come with that features and how to avoid them.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks in advance for anyone taking part in the
>>>>>>> discussion. :)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Best Regards, André
>>>>>>> 
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> 
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