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Message #28721
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
I was thinking the message panel above the statusbar rather than the
statusbar. The message panel is already kind of a general purpose
messaging area. Although it is primarily used for object property
display, it is also used to indicate file saves and other transient
messages.
On 3/15/2017 10:50 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark wrote:
> I like this. This seems like a good way. Althougt there are a lot of
> unused space in my status bar ( the one that shows z: x and y, adn dx
> and dy. Which was where i wanted some small tool status indication.
>
> On 03/15/2017 03:22 PM, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>> Why not just use the current message panel? You could show the modifier
>> keys and hotkeys for the current tool immediately after the tool is
>> selected before any object action takes place. Once an object is
>> selected by the current tool, it will just replace the tool help with
>> the object properties as it currently does. This gives the user a chance
>> to see the modifier keys before performing any actions. When the user
>> learns the tool immediate hotkey, the tool help would no longer be seen
>> because it would be replaced by the object properties immediately. I
>> would think that once a user was comfortable enough to use the hotkey,
>> they would already be aware of the modifier keys. Just food for
>> thought. I'm not a be fan of using valuable screen area to display help
>> information.
>>
>> On 3/15/2017 10:06 AM, Jon Evans wrote:
>>> Yes, that's what I meant, it would be for the current mode, and would
>>> change based on what you are doing. It would also be hide-able so that
>>> advanced users get the screen real estate back.
>>>
>>> There are no problems with combined modifiers, you just list each action
>>> in a different box. In fact, you could even have the modifiers change
>>> the box, so when you hold down the Ctrl key, it shows you exactly what
>>> will happen when you do various things with it held down
>>>
>>> Maybe once I have some more things done off my to-do list I will spend
>>> some more time making a mockup of this.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Jon
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark
>>> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, you are correct, but putting the buttons and their function in
>>> the same box would get problems with combined modifiers shift+ctrl
>>> options etc.
>>>
>>> But I was thinking of only showing current mode and not all possible
>>> modes at the same time. Mostly you would learn them anyway kinda
>>> quick, you would only need to know they can be learned. by
>>> indicating which buttons are available as modifiers in this tool.
>>>
>>> On 03/15/2017 02:54 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kristoffer,
>>>
>>> I didn't show in my mockup, but you could easily use a UI like
>>> this to
>>> show modifier keys info as well.
>>>
>>> -Jon
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark
>>> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Jon,
>>>
>>> I do not think that the hotkeys are a problem. The
>>> right-click menu
>>> shows how they are bound already and the right click menu is
>>> adaptable. I personally like the way that works a lot.
>>>
>>> It is more a problem regarding the modifiers, Ie buttons
>>> that must
>>> be held while doing something, they are not selecting
>>> stuff, but
>>> modifiying already existing functionality, usually slightly.
>>>
>>> - Kristoffer
>>>
>>> On 03/15/2017 02:29 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kristoffer, John,
>>>
>>> I agree this is an important problem to solve.
>>>
>>> I am not convinced that this is the perfect solution,
>>> but I
>>> wanted to
>>> share a way a commercial tool does it.
>>> Here's a screenshot from Mentor Graphics Xpedition
>>> showing what
>>> I mean:
>>> http://i.imgur.com/H0wDK0F.png
>>>
>>> At the bottom of the screen is a list of keyboard
>>> shortcuts,
>>> that change
>>> based on what you are doing. So, when you are in "place
>>> components"
>>> mode the list is different than if you are routing a
>>> track, for
>>> example. The developers chose the most common things to
>>> do for each
>>> "tool" that can be active, and assigned them to
>>> function-keys.
>>>
>>> Note that in Xpedition, the hotkeys themselves change,
>>> i.e. the
>>> icons on
>>> the bottom of the screen always correspond to the
>>> function keys
>>> F1-F12.
>>> But, even without adopting that scheme (which would
>>> conflict
>>> with some
>>> of our existing hotkeys), we could use the UI concept
>>> of a
>>> larger "quick
>>> reference" to hotkeys (I'm including mouse actions in
>>> the
>>> definition of
>>> hotkeys here) at the bottom of the screen, for example a
>>> quick
>>> mockup:
>>> http://i.imgur.com/wB0Yecy.png
>>>
>>> Then we would just need to define up to N hotkeys for
>>> each tool
>>> / tool
>>> mode that should be hinted to the user. (Where N is some
>>> number that
>>> looks not too cramped)
>>>
>>> -Jon
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 7:11 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark
>>> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, the status line is way to small it. However it
>>> could
>>> maybe be
>>> used to show which modifiers are in use. Not what
>>> they do.
>>>
>>> I believe that knowing which modifiers are in use
>>> would be
>>> enough,
>>> because many modifiers would probably be very self
>>> explanatory once
>>> activated, for example the angle-snap, having a grid
>>> snap etc.
>>>
>>> Then the idea of having an explanatory panel
>>> available somehow
>>> on-demand would probably be best.
>>>
>>> Attached is an idea mockup for putting on the left
>>> side in the
>>> status line.
>>>
>>> It shows when the arc tool is active and has ctrl
>>> and shift
>>> modifers
>>> where ctrl is currently held and angle snap-active.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/15/2017 12:11 PM, John Beard wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Kristoffer,
>>>
>>> I agree that the "secrecy" of KiCad shortcuts
>>> is a
>>> pretty major
>>> issue.
>>> It serves to make people good at KiCad think
>>> it's great,
>>> while new
>>> users struggle (probably in silence) because
>>> they don't know
>>> there's a
>>> better way.
>>>
>>> Expanding documentation is important here (he
>>> says, not
>>> having
>>> documented his new features yet) but it's
>>> unreasonable
>>> to expect
>>> users
>>> to wade through hundreds of screens of prose to
>>> be told
>>> incidentally
>>> that the arc tool snaps angles when you hold
>>> control.
>>>
>>> I certainly think some sort of easily accessible
>>> (at minimum
>>> hotkey +
>>> some sort of obvious visual affordance)
>>> method for a
>>> user to get
>>> contextual help is very important. Ideally
>>> something
>>> that doesn't
>>> break the user's flow. Popping a dialog that you
>>> have to
>>> dismiss
>>> is a
>>> little clunky, I feel. Perhaps some sort of
>>> panel that
>>> appears only
>>> while you're holding a key down?
>>>
>>> I'm not a huge fan of the Inkscape-style status
>>> line,
>>> though it's
>>> certainly better than nothing. It feels squeezed
>>> to me,
>>> since the
>>> information is really more like a list of
>>> possible
>>> modifiers than a
>>> one-liner. We do have a little area of the
>>> status bar
>>> that tells you
>>> what tool you're in, but that's nowhere near big
>>> enough
>>> to naively
>>> plonk screeds of text.
>>>
>>> tl;dr agree but no ideas yet!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Kristoffer
>>> Ödmark
>>> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello all!
>>>
>>> I just wanted to highlight an emerging
>>> problem to
>>> catch it
>>> in its cradle.
>>>
>>> The new tool and dialog patches that has
>>> been merged are
>>> great. But they
>>> also introduce secret functionaly, examples:
>>>
>>> Ctrl + click: highlights net ( modifier to
>>> select
>>> tool )
>>> ctrl + drag: snap angles in arc tool
>>> shift + click: adds/removes to selection in
>>> select mode
>>> shift + scroll: changes increment values in
>>> 3d-previewer
>>>
>>> These are the few examples I found right
>>> now, what I
>>> would
>>> like to see is a
>>> standardized way of informing the users
>>> to this
>>> before more
>>> tools get these
>>> hidden functionality.
>>>
>>> The way that current shortcuts are indicated
>>> I think are
>>> great ( the grey
>>> text next to their selection in menus Maybe
>>> we could
>>> expand
>>> on this to
>>> create tooltips to the menus with a list of
>>> modifier
>>> keys
>>> for the hovered
>>> tool in the menu.
>>>
>>> Another way that Gimp uses is to put this
>>> information at the
>>> bottom
>>> information bar, Maybe we could do that as
>>> well by
>>> modifying
>>> the current
>>> position information bar
>>>
>>> Yet another way would be to have tool
>>> specific settings
>>> given screen
>>> real-estate, much in the way of gimp and
>>> inkscape.
>>>
>>> At least I think this issue should be
>>> addressed and
>>> agreed
>>> upon before tools
>>> specify their different modifiers
>>> willy-nilly all
>>> over the
>>> place and you
>>> need a kicad-phd to remember them all. Just
>>> having
>>> an idea
>>> on how to do it
>>> can enable a good team-effort of
>>> supporting it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> -Kristoffer
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> -Kristoffer
>>>
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>>>
>>> --
>>> -Kristoffer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -Kristoffer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
References
-
Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Kristoffer Ödmark, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: John Beard, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Kristoffer Ödmark, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Jon Evans, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Kristoffer Ödmark, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Jon Evans, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Kristoffer Ödmark, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Jon Evans, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Wayne Stambaugh, 2017-03-15
-
Re: Indication of modifier buttons to tools and dialogs
From: Kristoffer Ödmark, 2017-03-15