mimblewimble team mailing list archive

[percytheprefect <percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

>And what's the ethos of this project?

Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance trumps all. This is what the MimbleWimble white paper's author had in mind when he released it to the wild -- he came up with a clearly superior solution to other scaling/privacy enhancing technologies.

>So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? People with merit.

So just to be clear, you are planning on banning people that disagree with you. For instance, I disagree with a code of conduct, will you ban me? I really do think it is a terrible idea that will be used as a tool for political gain down the road. You are setting the dangerous precedent that it is Igno's (and his friends) way or the highway in terms of project governance. Consensus amongst all participants is critical in cryptocoin projects -- you are suggesting censoring people who you have dissenting views with instead of debating them. Even if a person is toxic, they may be right or have a superior solution to what you have. I want Grin to have the best technical solutions scaling/privacy we can possibly have -- regardless of who the contributor is.

Would you accept a superior solution for a problem if the person was "toxic"?

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> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 10:08 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 3:08 AM
> From: igno.peverell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: percytheprefect <percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>> This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.
>
> And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we" when making questionable statements, I don't want to be included.
>
> Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about how well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally being polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over code"? So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? People with merit.
>
> Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea...
>
> - Igno
>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
>> From: percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>>Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit entity might be a good idea
>>
>> Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit be my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.
>>
>>>The project needs a Code of Conduct
>>
>> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of various crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of Conduct". Are you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the project if they don't follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it invites politics into the project instead of promoting a meritocracy.
>>
>>>If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right now, Grin needs to nail that
>>
>> It seems that every cryptocoin project that has a market cap > $1B has a terrible UI/UX. What does that say about the importance of the UI/UX compared to the core protocol? Let developers up the stack figure out how to handle this. We need to build a rock solid foundation for them to build their applications on top of. Let's not get distracted with things that aren't important at this point. No one will spend their time building things on top of Grin if the core protocol is broken.
>>
>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:03 PM
>>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM
>>> From: hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To: mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> Adding my thoughts on this:
>>>
>>> ### Naming
>>>
>>> - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest question the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a good answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like blockchain with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions"
>>>
>>> - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but it's grown on me and is short/sweet.
>>>
>>> - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin = Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is to simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will naturally gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you holding?" or "I was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest denomination ala a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything tacky ("ingot" sounds tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some have mentioned. My recommendation would be something really simple like "bits' or "microgrin" etc. Something boring/plain.
>>>
>>> ### Messaging
>>>
>>> I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome (benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted
>>>
>>> #### What makes Grin awesome
>>>
>>> - A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales
>>> - Maintains your privacy and security by default
>>> - Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining
>>>
>>> (I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would be great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?)
>>>
>>> #### Why you should trust the Grin project
>>>
>>> - No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks
>>> - Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to
>>> - Diverse community of contributing developers with no single controlling enttity
>>>
>>> ### Other misc. thoughts
>>>
>>> - Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit entity might be a good idea
>>> - The project needs a Code of Conduct (@Igno, do you have any experience in this field or should we consult someone who does?)
>>> - If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right now, Grin needs to nail that
>>>
>>> Hope that helps :)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jackson.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 05:27 PM, Cryptagoras wrote:
>>>
>>>> # Naming
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Andrew, that MimbleWimble is more fitting on the transaction-type naming rather than the blockchain. I like Grin and could see it being used for both the blockchain (that have to include MW probably) and the implementation.
>>>>
>>>> As for the coin, I agree with Casey Rodarmor that ethereum's subunits structure is extreme and personally find it counter-intuitive. I find no need to add a lot of more new terms, instead combine existing structures with a single base. Assuming a value of 10^8 like Bitcoin, I would propose the following:
>>>>
>>>>                        1 ingot  (1-999 ingots) (smallest denomination)
>>>> 1 tingot   =       1.000 ingots (1-999 thousand ingots)
>>>> 1 mingot   =   1.000.000 ingots (1-99  million ingots)
>>>> 1 grin     = 100.000.000 ingots
>>>>
>>>> I find/imagine the suggested `galleon` being a bit awkward in practice. So instead you could use `grin(s)` which shares the sound of `green` :P and has a nice play there but also it's very useful to have short easy word.
>>>>
>>>> (Another route could be to have `grams` instead of `ingots` and have [grams, kilograms|kg, tons] with 1 `ingot` being the full unit - it would also help spread the SI mass units over imperial :P)
>>>>
>>>> Giving names to all subunits causes fragmentation on the communication where some people choose to use the vanity/homage units and others the "SI" ones. Having 3 levels of subunits (with a single base) fits the current way of people using numbers more naturally.
>>>>
>>>> # Messaging
>>>>
>>>> As for the messaging, I agree with what has been written. The only thing I would add is an answer to a very common question I hear (mainly from hardcore bitcoiners who love MW & Grin). About the plans of getting integrated in a way to Bitcoin (pegged via sidechains) or even a native integration of MW. So it would be good to have an answer to go along with the rest if there's a decision.
>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>>>>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:32 PM
>>>>> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
>>>>> From: apoelstra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To: Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +0000, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
>>>>>> I"ll bite!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Naming
>>>>>> ======
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category,
>>>>>> instead of the blockchain type category.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so much
>>>>>> about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol" blockchain in
>>>>>> terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble
>>>>>> transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously,
>>>>>> turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t require a
>>>>>> different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of stake.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how the chain
>>>>> works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the lines of
>>>>> "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW is totally
>>>>> agnostic to that stuff".
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter connection? I
>>>>>> always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another really
>>>>>> apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s Adventures in
>>>>>> Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the beast has
>>>>>> disappeared.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding bank. I like
>>>>> the Chesire Cat connection :P.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon would
>>>>>> be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in the
>>>>>> middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it
>>>>>> might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases to
>>>>>> the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three might be
>>>>>> the sweet spot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her lawyers. She"s
>>>>> historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary system might
>>>>> be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my knowledge she has
>>>>> never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Messaging
>>>>>> =========
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition,
>>>>>> it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people understand
>>>>>> the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and avoids
>>>>>> the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit uses.
>>>>>> Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding confidentiality"
>>>>>> section on their home page[2].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good, since they
>>>>>> have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities.
>>>>>> However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations
>>>>>> that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll be an ongoing
>>>>>> but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on point here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency
>>>>>> [1] https://etherconverter.online
>>>>>> [2] https://z.cash
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We"re not making private transactions possible, there are already a million ways
>>>>> to move wealth around the world covertly. We"re making privacy *cheap* and
>>>>> *accessible*.
>>>>>
>>>>> People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an immediate and
>>>>> direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for maintaining
>>>>> it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are being
>>>>> surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are indirect and
>>>>> invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to pay
>>>>> their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and manipulating
>>>>> them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without anybody
>>>>> throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors.
>>>>>
>>>>> These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their privacy when
>>>>> their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or unavailable. Criminals
>>>>> don"t give a shit.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Poelstra
>>>>> Mathematics Department, Blockstream
>>>>> Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
>>>>> Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew
>>>>>
>>>>> "A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese
>>>>> who can never find their peace,
>>>>> whether north or south or west or east"
>>>>> --Joanna Newsom
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
>>>>> Post to : mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
>>>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>
>>>> --
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