mimblewimble team mailing list archive

[Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:24 PM percytheprefect <
percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> >And what's the ethos of this project?
>
> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance trumps all.
>

Adoption, usability, and attracting talented collaborators are all
important. Features and performance are important, but one must take a
holistic view and balance different objectives.


> This is what the MimbleWimble white paper's author had in mind when he
> released it to the wild -- he came up with a clearly superior solution to
> other scaling/privacy enhancing technologies.
>

Monsieur Jedusor is of course welcome to participate, but this project is
an implementation of an idea by a bunch of people on the internet, and
those people should decide how to run the project. (And I'm not including
myself here, I haven't made any contributions to the code.)

>So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? People
> with merit. So just to be clear, you are planning on banning people that
> disagree with you. For instance, I disagree with a code of conduct, will
> you ban me? I really do think it is a terrible idea that will be used as a
> tool for political gain down the road.
>

Nobody said anything about banning disagreement. Disagreeing with a code of
conduct is not a violation.


> Would you accept a superior solution for a problem if the person was
> "toxic"?
>

Yes. Codes of conduct that I'm aware of don't ban ideas, they ban toxic
participants.

I think that, in the long run, encouraging a a positive, civil, and
welcoming environment will do more for the health of the project than
allowing people who are unable to be civil participate. We're not talking
about kindergarten-level civility here.

As a concrete example, the Rust community and project are thriving, by any
metric I can think of. I think that the code of conduct is a factor in that.


> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 10:08 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 3:08 AM
> From: igno.peverell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: percytheprefect <percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> > This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.
>
> And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we"
> when making questionable statements, I don't want to be included.
>
>
> Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about
> how well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally
> being polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over
> code"? So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides?
> People with merit.
>
> Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea...
>
> - Igno
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
> From: percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> >Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively)
> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin
> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit
> entity might be a good idea
>
> Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL
> group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit
> be my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of
> authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of
> this project.
>
> >The project needs a Code of Conduct
>
> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems
> like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't
> contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of
> various crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of
> Conduct". Are you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the
> project if they don't follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it
> invites politics into the project instead of promoting a meritocracy.
>
> >If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start
> talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user
> experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right
> now, Grin needs to nail that
>
> It seems that every cryptocoin project that has a market cap > $1B has a
> terrible UI/UX. What does that say about the importance of the UI/UX
> compared to the core protocol? Let developers up the stack figure out how
> to handle this. We need to build a rock solid foundation for them to build
> their applications on top of. Let's not get distracted with things that
> aren't important at this point. No one will spend their time building
> things on top of Grin if the core protocol is broken.
>
>
>
> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:03 PM
> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM
> From: hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Adding my thoughts on this:
>
> *### Naming*
>
> - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with
> MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will
> obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to
> implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest
> question the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a
> good answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like
> blockchain with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions"
>
> - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but it's
> grown on me and is short/sweet.
>
> - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody
> really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there
> often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin
> = Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is
> to simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will
> naturally gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you
> holding?" or "I was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest
> denomination ala a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything
> tacky ("ingot" sounds tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some
> have mentioned. My recommendation would be something really simple like
> "bits' or "microgrin" etc. Something boring/plain.
>
> *### Messaging*
>
> I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome
> (benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted
>
> *#### What makes Grin awesome*
>
> - A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales
> - Maintains your privacy and security by default
> - Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining
>
> (I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would be
> great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?)
>
> *#### Why you should trust the Grin project*
>
> - No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks
> - Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to
> - Diverse community of contributing developers with no single controlling
> enttity
>
> *### Other misc. thoughts*
>
> - Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively)
> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin
> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit
> entity might be a good idea
> - The project needs a Code of Conduct (@Igno, do you have any experience
> in this field or should we consult someone who does?)
> - If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start
> talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user
> experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right
> now, Grin needs to nail that
>
> Hope that helps :)
>
> Cheers,
> *Jackson.*
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 05:27 PM, Cryptagoras wrote:
>
> # Naming
>
> I agree with Andrew, that MimbleWimble is more fitting on the
> transaction-type naming rather than the blockchain. I like Grin and could
> see it being used for both the blockchain (that have to include MW
> probably) and the implementation.
>
> As for the coin, I agree with Casey Rodarmor that ethereum's subunits
> structure is extreme and personally find it counter-intuitive. I find no
> need to add a lot of more new terms, instead combine existing structures
> with a single base. Assuming a value of 10^8 like Bitcoin, I would propose
> the following:
>
>                        1 ingot  (1-999 ingots) (smallest denomination)
> 1 tingot   =       1.000 ingots (1-999 thousand ingots)
> 1 mingot   =   1.000.000 ingots (1-99  million ingots)
> 1 grin     = 100.000.000 ingots
>
> I find/imagine the suggested `galleon` being a bit awkward in practice. So
> instead you could use `grin(s)` which shares the sound of `green` :P and
> has a nice play there but also it's very useful to have short easy word.
>
> (Another route could be to have `grams` instead of `ingots` and have
> [grams, kilograms|kg, tons] with 1 `ingot` being the full unit - it would
> also help spread the SI mass units over imperial :P)
>
> Giving names to all subunits causes fragmentation on the communication
> where some people choose to use the vanity/homage units and others the "SI"
> ones. Having 3 levels of subunits (with a single base) fits the current way
> of people using numbers more naturally.
>
> # Messaging
>
> As for the messaging, I agree with what has been written. The only thing I
> would add is an answer to a very common question I hear (mainly from
> hardcore bitcoiners who love MW & Grin). About the plans of getting
> integrated in a way to Bitcoin (pegged via sidechains) or even a native
> integration of MW. So it would be good to have an answer to go along with
> the rest if there's a decision.
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:32 PM
> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
> From: apoelstra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +0000, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
> > I"ll bite!
> >
> >
> > Naming
> > ======
> >
> > 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category,
> > instead of the blockchain type category.
> >
> > Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so
> much
> > about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol" blockchain
> in
> > terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation.
> >
> > So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble
> > transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously,
> > turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t require a
> > different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of
> stake.)
> >
>
> +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how the
> chain
> works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the lines
> of
> "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW is
> totally
> agnostic to that stuff".
>
> > 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter connection?
> I
> > always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another
> really
> > apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s Adventures
> in
> > Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the beast
> has
> > disappeared.
> >
>
> Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding bank. I
> like
> the Chesire Cat connection :P.
>
> > 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon
> would
> > be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in the
> > middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it
> > might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases
> to
> > the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small.
> >
> > I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three might
> be
> > the sweet spot.
> >
>
> I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her lawyers. She"s
> historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary system
> might
> be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my knowledge
> she has
> never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble.
>
> >
> > Messaging
> > =========
> >
> > I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition,
> > it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people
> understand
> > the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and avoids
> > the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit
> uses.
> > Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding
> confidentiality"
> > section on their home page[2].
> >
> > Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good, since they
> > have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities.
> > However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations
> > that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll be an ongoing
> > but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on point
> here.
> >
> > [0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency
> > [1] https://etherconverter.online
> > [2] https://z.cash
> >
>
> We"re not making private transactions possible, there are already a
> million ways
> to move wealth around the world covertly. We"re making privacy *cheap* and
> *accessible*.
>
> People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an
> immediate and
> direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for
> maintaining
> it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are
> being
> surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are indirect
> and
> invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to
> pay
> their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and
> manipulating
> them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without
> anybody
> throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors.
>
> These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their
> privacy when
> their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or unavailable.
> Criminals
> don"t give a shit.
>
>
> --
> Andrew Poelstra
> Mathematics Department, Blockstream
> Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
> Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew
>
> "A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese
> who can never find their peace,
> whether north or south or west or east"
> --Joanna Newsom
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
> Post to : mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
> Post to     : mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
> Post to     : mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>