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Re: Qt5 and touch performance issue

 

Before people looking at that quick first boot tutorial screen, tell us why would people choose touch when they already have android or ios. People simply don't change unless there's some reason. If you have marketing experience, you would know that. If touch doesn't care about marketing share, that would be another story.
I never say it's an easy job to support Android apps. But it seems to be a shortcut for touch to gain the marketing share. Also I say right now the most important thing is to have a smooth reliable system. Without a stable system, it's no use to support Android apps.
Third, I didn't say Android emulator is my idea. How can we get more effecient with an Android emulator?


------------------ Original ------------------
From:  "Josh Leverette"<coder543@xxxxxxxxx>;
Date:  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 10:03 PM
To:  "leon lee"<llrraa@xxxxxx>; 
Cc:  "Alfred Neumayer"<dev.beidl@xxxxxxxxx>; "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 
Subject:  Re: [Ubuntu-phone] Qt5 and touch performance issue



Navigation being different from Android and iOS will not be an issue -- a quick first boot tutorial screen can explain it easily enough. The lack of apps is far more threatening, but supporting Android apps simply is not an option. Even if it were a good idea, it still isn't an option. You don't realize how large of an undertaking it would be, and how poor the result would be. All of the engineering talent wasted on making a poor Android emulator for Ubuntu would then cause the rest of the operating system to be of even poorer quality since no one would have time to work on that if they're going to finish the emulator in time. That's a gambit you're not going to recover from. If you think it is so easy, that's why you're free to develop it, but you'll quickly find out on your own that it isn't a good idea.
 

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 8:54 AM, leon lee <llrraa@xxxxxx> wrote:
 If ways of navigation are completely different, then I would doubt how touch would be successful in the market. People are familiar with android and ios, how would people go choose one thing that's completely different, and with just a few apps. Unless touch is as innovative as ios in 2007, and the marketing people are as good as Jobs. 
 I hope the marketing people have thought about this.


------------------ Original ------------------
 From:  "Alfred Neumayer"<dev.beidl@xxxxxxxxx>;
Date:  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 09:22 PM
To:  "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 
 
Subject:  Re: [Ubuntu-phone] Qt5 and touch performance issue




                   You are making it sound easier than it actually is.
     
     The effort that would be required to have a decently working     Android-compatibility layer is
     not worth the hassle IMO, since it would put us in the same category     as Windows 8, where you have 2 completely different types of apps     (Desktop & "Metro" apps : Ubuntu SDK & Android apps).
     
     I would not want to have 2 completely different types of apps with     completely different ways of navigation and fundamental technical     differences on my smart phone.
     What value does app compatibility bring if the user experience is     crap?
     
     Am 2013-06-21 15:16, schrieb leon lee:
     
     
       To merge two systems together, we need to know more about the         ARCH of both, or we would be lost. I think you must be very         familiar with the ARCH of touch, why not introduce it to us. Or         show us where to find the infomation.
       
         
         
         
         
         ------------------ Original ------------------
                    From:  "Thomas Vo             "<thomas.voss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
           Date:  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 09:00 PM
           To:  "leon lee"<llrraa@xxxxxx>; 
           Cc:  "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;             
           Subject:  Re: [Ubuntu-phone] Qt5 and touch             performance issue
         

         
         
                    
           
           
             
             On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 2:52 PM,               leon lee <llrraa@xxxxxx>               wrote:
                                                   activity manager: like the name says, manage the                     activity, and also some memory management. 
                   When an activity starts, the activity manager                     would request zygote( the mother of almost                     everything in android ) to fork a thread, and then                     the activity manager manages this activity/thread. 
                   When the activity stops, the thread is not                     killed. So next time when the same activty is being                     started, the thread can be used for it at once, so                     to save time. But when the memory is not enough, the                     thread with no activity running would be killed                     first. This is the major part of memory management.
                   So you can say activity manager just manages the                     thread, and this should be the basic module of                     touch. 
                   For android 2.3, the code locates in                     framework/base/services/java/com/android/server/am/,                     in case you want to look into it.
                   
                   
                 
                              
               
                                                   Content provider: from comment of                     ContentProvider.java:
                   Content providers are one of the primary building                     blocks of Android applications, providing content to                     applications. They encapsulate data and provide it                     to applications through the single ContentResolver                     interface. A content provider is only required if                     you need to share data between multiple                     applications. For example, the contacts data is used                     by multiple applications and must be stored in a                     content provider. If you don't need to share data                     amongst multiple applications you can use a database                     directly via android.database.sqlite.SQLiteDatabase.
                   For more information, read Content Providers.
                   When a request is made via a ContentResolver the                     system inspects the authority of the given URI and                     passes the request to the content provider                     registered with the authority. The content provider                     can interpret the rest of the URI however it wants.                     The UriMatcher class is helpful for parsing URIs.
                   leon: I think Content provider is just the                     abstract class for data sharing between multiple                     applications, data like contacts.
                   
                   
                   For android 2.3, the code locates in                     frameworks/base/core/java/android/content/, in case                     you want to look into it.
                   also: http://grepcode.com/file/repository.grepcode.com/java/ext/com.google.android/android/2.3.4_r1/android/content/ContentProvider.java
                 
                                    
                   
                 
                              
               
                                Thanks for the                   summary, I'm aware of the purpose and the internals of                   both ActivityManager and ContentProvider.
                 
                 
                 Again, the level of                   detail we would require to get started is much higher                   and I do not think that the approach of picking two                   components at random and summarizing their                   \brief-documentation helps.
                 
                 
                 Thanks,
                                    
                 
                  Thomas
                 
               
                
               
                                    
                   
                   ------------------ Original                     ------------------
                                        From:  "Thomas Vo "<thomas.voss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
                     Date:  Fri, Jun 21, 2013 07:17 PM
                                            To:  "leon lee"<llrraa@xxxxxx>;                       
                       Cc:  "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;                       
                       Subject:  Re: [Ubuntu-phone] Qt5 and                         touch performance issue
                     

                   
                   
                   
                                        
                     
                     
                       
                                                On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:03 PM,                           leon lee <llrraa@xxxxxx>                           wrote:
                                                        If we look at the ARCH of android, I                               think we need change the framwork,                               expecially activity manager, window                               manager, content providers, view system.                               If touch has such an ARCH chart, it would                               be easier to know what to do from the ARCH                               aspect.
                                                      
                           
                         
                                                    We don't have an activity manager,                             content providers or a view system (the                             latter is a toolkit btw, so roughly the                             equivalent of Qt/QML & HTML5/JS). A                             window manager is there of course, but not                             in the sense that android exposes it. As                             much as I'm a fan of block diagrams, I'm                             afraid that we need to dive a lot deeper                             into the details of the Android SDK to                             really map individual components.
                           
                           
                           Again: Help with that is greatly                             appreciated :-)
                           
                           
                           Thanks,
                                                        
                           
                            Thomas
                         
                         
                                                        
                             
                                                                                             
                                 
                                 
                                                                    ------------------ Original                                   ------------------
                                                                    From:  "Thomas Vo "<thomas.voss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
                                   Date:  Thu, Jun 20, 2013                                     11:18 PM
                                                                        To:  "leon lee"<llrraa@xxxxxx>;                                     
                                     Cc:  "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;                                     
                                     Subject:  Re:                                       [Ubuntu-phone] Qt5 and touch                                       performance issue
                                   

                                 
                                                                    
                                   
                                   On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 4:53 PM, leon                                   lee <llrraa@xxxxxx>                                   wrote:
                                   > When I say make android dvm                                   available on touch, I mean keep the                                   performance
                                   > of touch, and make dvm adapted to                                   touch. It means that we will change                                   the
                                   > framwork of android. this would                                   be much helpful for touch's marketing.
                                 
                                                                    > Don't worry about the "good                                     enough" issue. The competition of                                     app companies
                                     > is tense. If touch's app                                     performs better, and some of the                                     companies would
                                     > make use of it, and the others                                     would have to follow up.
                                     > Btw, why do I keep making new                                     thread in the mailist?
                                     >
                                     
                                     Let us assume Ubuntu Touch would                                     want to support Android apps:
                                     
                                     Then we would not only need to pull                                     in Dalvik (or an equivalent that
                                     might need a lot of optimization to                                     fly on mobile cpus) in its
                                     functionality as an interpreter, but                                     also walk through the complete
                                     Android SDK & its class library                                     and map all platform-specific
                                     functionality down to the Ubuntu                                     Touch platform. In essence, we would
                                     need to re-implement huge portions                                     of the SDK and maintain it over
                                     time, as both the Android SDK and                                     the Ubuntu Touch platform evolves.
                                     While this is certainly doable from                                     a technical perspective, I think
                                     that two major issues need to be                                     considered here first:
                                     
                                     (1.) There will certainly be areas                                     in the Android SDK that we either
                                     don't want or simply can't map to                                     Ubuntu Touch.
                                     (2.) The sheer size of the overall                                     Android SDK.
                                     
                                     To address (1.) and (2.) we could                                     start over with inspecting the
                                     Android SDK and the class library                                     and check for individual
                                     namespaces/classes if there is an                                     equivalent on Ubuntu Touch that they
                                     map to. If so, it would be quite                                     interesting to know how prominent                                     the
                                     component is for app developers in                                     order to be able to prioritize the
                                     porting effort.
                                     
                                     Any help with this preliminary                                     evaluation would be greatly                                     appreciated :)
                                     
                                     Thanks,
                                     
                                     Thomas
                                     
                                   
                                 
                                 

                                   > ------------------ Original                                     ------------------
                                     > From: "Josh Leverette"<coder543@xxxxxxxxx>;
                                     > Date: Thu, Jun 20, 2013 09:58                                     PM

                                     > To: "leon lee"<llrraa@xxxxxx>;
                                     > Cc: "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
                                     > Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-phone]Qt5                                     and touch performance issue
                                     >
                                     > If you ever want the system to                                     perform smoothly, then we must                                     absolutely
                                     > never officially support                                     running Android apps on Ubuntu.                                     Additionally, it
                                     > would be a death sentence for                                     Ubuntu touch. Adding Android app                                     support would
                                     > crush any chance of Ubuntu ever                                     having good apps. When companies see                                     that
                                     > their Android app on Ubuntu is                                     "good enough", they will never                                     bother to make
                                     > an "excellent" version for                                     Ubuntu. But when the only option is                                     excellence,
                                     > mediocrity is not encouraged.                                     Ubuntu will suffer at first because                                     of this
                                     > decision, but it will be                                     stronger in the long run as a                                     result. "Delayed
                                     > gratification" is another way                                     to describe it.
                                     >
                                     > I agree that making the system                                     smooth is very important, but they                                     are
                                     > writing a new display server                                     for Ubuntu touch. Until that is                                     finished, most
                                     > time spent optimizing                                     performance would be wasted. We must                                     wait.
                                     >
                                     >

                                     > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 8:30                                     AM, leon lee <llrraa@xxxxxx>                                     wrote:
                                     >>
                                     >> I still think the most                                     important thing right now for touch                                     is to have a
                                     >> reliable smoth system. For                                     app, in the long term, we should                                     make android dvm
                                     >> available on touch. So we                                     can make use of all the android                                     apps.
                                     >>
                                     >>
                                     >> ------------------ Original                                     ------------------

                                     >> From: "Josh Leverette"<coder543@xxxxxxxxx>;
                                     >> Date: Thu, Jun 20, 2013                                     09:45 AM

                                     >> To: "leon lee"<llrraa@xxxxxx>;
                                     >> Cc: "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
                                     >> Subject: Re:                                     [Ubuntu-phone]Qt5 and touch                                     performance issue
                                     >>
                                     >> For now, features are most                                     important. I hope that they will                                     start fixing
                                     >> performance soon. The                                     design is good. Performance should                                     not be an issue. If
                                     >> it is, that would make me                                     sad. I am confident that they will                                     fix it.
                                     >>
                                     >> Sincerely,
                                     >> Josh
                                     >>

                                     >> On Jun 19, 2013 8:07 PM,                                     "leon lee" <llrraa@xxxxxx>                                     wrote:
                                     >>>
                                     >>> This would be the major                                     issur of touch. Can we discuss more                                     details?
                                     >>> Let's if there's                                     something we can do.
                                     >>>
                                     >>>
                                     >>> ------------------                                     Original ------------------

                                     >>> From: "Josh                                     Leverette"<coder543@xxxxxxxxx>;
                                     >>> Date: Thu, Jun 20, 2013                                     03:05 AM

                                     >>> To: "leon lee"<llrraa@xxxxxx>;
                                     >>> Cc: "ubuntu-phone"<ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
                                     >>> Subject: Re:                                     [Ubuntu-phone] how do you feel about                                     touch
                                     >>>
                                     >>> It is based on Qt5, and                                     Qt5 makes heavy use of GPU                                     acceleration. Right
                                     >>> now there are a few                                     performance issues, but I expect                                     that Ubuntu will run
                                     >>> very smoothly once                                     finished.
                                     >>>
                                     >>>

                                     >>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at                                     8:54 AM, leon <llrraa@xxxxxx>                                     wrote:
                                     >>>>
                                     >>>> After know the ARCH                                     of android, which is using java as                                     the framework, I
                                     >>>> feel a little                                     disappointed. That means that with                                     the hardware, android won't
                                     >>>> be as smooth as                                     IOS, which is on the native                                     framework.
                                     >>>> From that day, I'm                                     looking forward to a better android.                                     At first, I'm
                                     >>>> thinking about the                                     combination of android and meego,                                     just like what touch
                                     >>>> does today. Luckly,                                     I found touch, so I don't need to                                     move a long way to get
                                     >>>> my goal.
                                     >>>> Since I don't have                                     a working touch handset, I hope                                     people using touch
                                     >>>> can share your                                     feeling with me. Would it be faster                                     and smoother with touch
                                     >>>> than android?
                                     >>>>
                                     >>>>
                                     >>>>
                                     >>>>
                                     >>>> --
                                     >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
                                     >>>> Post to : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

                                     >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
                                     >>>> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
                                     >>>>
                                     >>>
                                     >>>
                                     >>>
                                     >>> --
                                     >>> Sincerely,
                                     >>> Josh
                                     >
                                     >
                                     >
                                     >
                                     > --
                                     > Sincerely,
                                     > Josh
                                     >
                                     > --
                                     > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
                                     > Post to : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
                                     > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
                                     > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
                                     >
                                   

                                 
                               
                             
                           
                                                
                       
                     
                   
                 
                            
             
           
         
       
       
              
          


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-- 
Sincerely,
    Josh

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