unity-design team mailing list archive

[Adrian Maier <syraxes@xxxxxxxxx>]

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 15:36, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
<joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On 23. feb. 2012 12:27, Adrian Maier wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 00:55, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>> <joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 22. feb. 2012 23:13, Adrian Maier wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The classic gnome2 menu is so efficient that I don't feel the need to
>>>> create shortcuts for applications ... That's why i find it extremely
>>>> productive .
>>>
>>> There is nothing "Gnome 2" about the classic desktop. It's exactly the
>>> same
>>> in Gnome Panel 3.
>>
>> I am mentioning  Gnome2  because I haven't seen Gnome3 yet .
>> Ubuntu is still my preferred distribution ,   and Gnome3 is not
>> available in the
>> versions that i currently use ...
>
>
> Ubuntu switched to Gnome 3 partially in 11.04, more completely in 11.10, and
> further in Precise.
> A couple of screenshots of Gnome 3 in 11.10:
>
> Adding an applet: http://ubuntuone.com/0FQKR9MBQp5lMTgtg3jRg5
> Using menus: http://ubuntuone.com/1LjAMTsvApITscaUGxWNp1
>
> From all your posts, that seems to be exactly what you want. I wrote before
> that this is not called Gnome 2. It is called Gnome Panel, which is
> available in Gnome 1, 2 and 3. If this is indeed your vision of the future,
> then that's fine. Use it, contribute to it and be happy. It's not the vision
> of Unity. The very easiest way you can contribute you it, is to stop
> referring to it as "Gnome 2", because that implies that there's something
> Gnome 2 specific about it, which is not true.

> If indeed you're using Precise, then just install the package called
> gnome-panel: http://apt.ubuntu.com/p/gnome-panel. Then, the next time you
> login, choose the classic session. You will then have a desktop that is
> pretty much identical to the desktop in 10.04. And though I haven't tried,
> I'm pretty sure you should be able to add the Unity 2D launcher and dash to
> it if you wanted to.

I obviously had no idea about the possibility to start this
gnome-panel inside Unity .  Thanks for the tip !


>> In fact i think that the problem is that the current implementation
>> doesn't offer some kind of middle ground :
>>
>> - search is good when you know exactly the name of an application
>
>
> Then "web" should never return the default web browser and "mail" should not
> return your email client, etc? That wouldn't make any kind of sense if the
> goal is to make sure that searches is only useful if you have the precise
> name. I don't understand why that should ever be a goal. You know, there was
> a time when the web didn't use search engines, but hierarchical menus. The
> claim that searches require you to use exact phrases, obviously isn't true.
> Otherwise, searches would never have replaced directories on the web.
>
>
>>
>> - the current Dash  is good for the complete newbie who has lots of
>> time to look around .  Needs to be shown pretty big icons.   Needs to
>> be informed that there are tons of additional apps .
>>
>> But what about the users who are already familiar with Linux and Ubuntu ?
>
> If the icons are made smaller, then there's no space to have text. I've used
> Gnome since 1999 and Ubuntu since November 2005. Is it my experience you're
> worried about? Please don't. To me, Unity is the easiest and most efficient
> desktop I've ever used.
>
>
>>
>>
>> I might become happy with the Dash if  I  were given the chance to
>> customize it a bit :
>> -  select a small icons size
>> -  disable the Apps available for Download
>
> You mean such as unselecting the online scope in the applications lens?

I mean : hiding the "apps available for download"


>
>> -  select a preference that i want to always see all results    (
>> disable "see more N results " )  .
>> -  specify how many "recently used"  items i'd like to see
>
> Then you have two choices; accept that your dash will be extremely slow, or
> make sure you cannot find all your stuff. Which do you prefer? I prefer the
> third choice; limit the number of entries displayed by default and enable me
> to find anything.

I prefer the fourth choice :    that it remembers that i have expanded
the "see more ".    And keep that screen section expanded for the next
searches,  until i click  "see fewer results" .

>>
>> I really don't need to have half of the screen occupied with
>> applications suggested to be installed.  I know how to install
>> software .
>
> Then just disable that. It isn't exactly difficult if you're looking for
> solutions instead of looking for things to complain about.
>
>>> Why? You have to explain these things. Simply stating that a single
>>> column
>>> is more efficient than a grid, makes no sense.
>>
>>
>> 1.  Moving from one category to another is possible by hovering the
>> mouse .   I consider this more comfortable and easy.
>
> Yes. That is a big problem with the old menus that's been known for decades.
> It is difficult to use for new users since it requires advanced mouse
> skills. People with reduced fine muscle movement, such as patients with
> Parkinsons decease will have terrible problems since a small movement will
> move you into a different category. It is difficult to use if you have
> reduced vision. Etc.
>
>
>>
>> 2.  All the applications are visible immediately in a category.    You
>> don't need to click on "see more results" .
>
>
> Yes, in the age of web apps, for instance, this is a perfect solution.
> Imagine having a thousand entries in the Internet category.
>
>
>>
>> 3.  Smaller icons means that more items fit on the screen .
>
>
> That is not necessarily true. It is only a single column, which means you
> use a much smaller part of your screen. With Unity, on the other hand, you
> use the entire screen.
>
>
>>
>> 4.  A compact view  means less scrolling and less click on "see more
>> results" . This is a good thing.

> No, using a single column instead of a grid means more scrolling.


>> 5.  Did i mention that with a classic menu there is no need to click a
>>  "see more results"  ?
>
>
> You did. You need to scroll instead. And loading a thousand icons still
> takes time using a "classic menu".
>
>>>> Also, I still claim that any application can be started with exactly 2
>>>> clicks.
>>>> This is very handy if you know the category.
>>>
>>> The number of clicks isn't as important as the time it takes to figure
>>> out
>>> where to click.
>>
>> Exactly :   in gnome2 / xfce    i can see quickly see the categories
>> and the applications inside the category .
>> It's a compact view that can be navigated based on mouse hover .
>
> Again; it is not called gnome2. It is called Gnome Panel. It has always been
> available, has never been removed and if you prefer it, you should use it.
> This is not the idea of Unity. If you prefer to use Gnome Panel, then just
> use it. It will never make sense to try and push the old work flow onto a
> different product. You should either adapt to the Unity workflow, or keep
> using Gnome Panel or some other "classic" environment.

I am quite certain that last summer  (when I have tried Unity in
11.04)    i did not come across the possibiity to do that .

And Ubuntu 11.04  wasn't released with Gnome3 .


>>>> But there is a strong repelling attitude against such features. However
>>>> this
>>>> resistance doesn't make enough sense : I am not suggesting to remove
>>>> the existing "solution".   It's about _adding_  a feature .
>>>
>>> Yes, and you are not the only user. You speak as if adding features have
>>> no
>>> consequences.
>
>
>> Why does bother you so much the existence of a classical apps menu ?
>> I am not suggesting it be forced upon everyone  .  I am NOT suggesting
>> that the Dash
>> should be removed.
>
> It is extremely rude to twist other peoples words like that. I've never ever
> expressed any kind of misgivings about the classic menu. Quite the contrary.
> I've spent large amounts of time working advocating for keeping it. That's
> not the same as using it as a default in Unity.

There were some misunderstandings here .

It was never my intention to suggest changing anything in the defaults.

All that I wanted was some sort of button or menu or 'something'  that
would display a classic apps menu.   Not enabled by default  : only
have the possibility to enable it within Unity .


And in your last email you have whispered the information that it's
possible to enable the gnome panel.   Excellent information . Many
thanks for it  ....


> This was from a private email you sent me where you claimed that
> right-clicking on the desktop should display the menus you want. My response
> was that if all users should have menus for everything they wanted in the
> desktop by default, it would mean an extremely large menu, which would make
> it extremely difficult to use. This was an effort to explain why simply
> "_adding_ a feature" is not without consequences.


I am fully aware that the Dash would not be replaced with something
else in the near future.   So I have mentioned the idea of right-click
on the desktop because it felt less intrusive .   It was just a
possibility


I have mentioned the idea of having such a menu displayed



>>> If we add all features that any user on the internet wants,
>>> then you'll have a desktop menu with thousands of entries. You're the
>>> very
>>> first person I've seen to ask for this.
>>
>> I don't know how many users would like to have a classic apps menu in
>> addition to the Dash .
>>
>> And you don't know it either.
>
>
> The difference is that I know that you can easily add it if you want it. You
> would also know this if you had asked for it, instead of being angry that
> you can't.

> Here's an example for you: http://ubuntuone.com/0X1JuF6HRTwEb5U1JyIk1D
>
>
> This has nothing at all to do with Gnome 2. It has to do with Gnome Panel,
> which is just as available in Gnome 3 as it is in Gnome 2. If it's
> identical, then how can it be less customizable?
>
>
>> I can't comment about Gnome3  because i didn't try yet  due to
>> Canonical's decision to develop from scratch its own desktop
>> experience ...
>
>
> I told you before, Ubuntu uses Gnome 3 by default. If you've tried Unity,
> you have also tried Gnome 3. And if Canonical makes a product, that means
> you cannot use other products? I don't understand that. It's not as if Unity
> has removed the old application menu or anything like that.

But isn't   the inclusion of gnome3  something relatively new  - maybe
11.10  ?

I had the feeling that Ubuntu 11.04  was released with gnome2  .
There are even various howtos about "how to install gnome 3 in ubuntu
11.04" .


>> By "panels"   i am referring to those areas that can be placed on the
>> screen edges and  where I can add launchers,  window list ,
>> notifications, clock,  drawers, and tons of other stuff.     Gnome2
>> and Xfce4  support such panels.    Unity doesn't  .
>
> Of course it does. Why do you make such claims? If you don't know something,
> then ask. And you keep referring to it as Gnome 2, which is complete
> nonsense since Gnome 3 is identical in this regard. The name is Gnome Panel.
> Not Gnome 2. It is completely usable with Unity. It always has been. I would
> recommend that you spend some time on http://AskUbuntu.com. Fewer claims,
> more questions.


If it is a well-known fact that the Gnome panel is usable easily in
Unity ,  how is it possible that nobody did hit me with that
information  immediately after i've begun to talk about how much i'm
missing the classic apps menu ?

I had to irritate you a bit before you whispered the suggestion to
start the gnome-panel  .
I've just tried it and it indeed works :  now i have "Applications"
and "Places"  in the top left corner of the screen .   This is perfect
:  I would probably set to autohide the bottom bar ,  because all that
i wished was to have the old apps menu "somewhere"  on the screen .


Many Thanks !
Adrian