unity-design team mailing list archive
Mailing list archive
Re: Some impressions about the current status of Unity
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 15:36, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
> On 23. feb. 2012 12:27, Adrian Maier wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 00:55, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>> <joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> On 22. feb. 2012 23:13, Adrian Maier wrote:
>>>> The classic gnome2 menu is so efficient that I don't feel the need to
>>>> create shortcuts for applications ... That's why i find it extremely
>>>> productive .
>>> There is nothing "Gnome 2" about the classic desktop. It's exactly the
>>> in Gnome Panel 3.
>> I am mentioning Gnome2 because I haven't seen Gnome3 yet .
>> Ubuntu is still my preferred distribution , and Gnome3 is not
>> available in the
>> versions that i currently use ...
> Ubuntu switched to Gnome 3 partially in 11.04, more completely in 11.10, and
> further in Precise.
> A couple of screenshots of Gnome 3 in 11.10:
> Adding an applet: http://ubuntuone.com/0FQKR9MBQp5lMTgtg3jRg5
> Using menus: http://ubuntuone.com/1LjAMTsvApITscaUGxWNp1
> From all your posts, that seems to be exactly what you want. I wrote before
> that this is not called Gnome 2. It is called Gnome Panel, which is
> available in Gnome 1, 2 and 3. If this is indeed your vision of the future,
> then that's fine. Use it, contribute to it and be happy. It's not the vision
> of Unity. The very easiest way you can contribute you it, is to stop
> referring to it as "Gnome 2", because that implies that there's something
> Gnome 2 specific about it, which is not true.
> If indeed you're using Precise, then just install the package called
> gnome-panel: http://apt.ubuntu.com/p/gnome-panel. Then, the next time you
> login, choose the classic session. You will then have a desktop that is
> pretty much identical to the desktop in 10.04. And though I haven't tried,
> I'm pretty sure you should be able to add the Unity 2D launcher and dash to
> it if you wanted to.
I obviously had no idea about the possibility to start this
gnome-panel inside Unity . Thanks for the tip !
>> In fact i think that the problem is that the current implementation
>> doesn't offer some kind of middle ground :
>> - search is good when you know exactly the name of an application
> Then "web" should never return the default web browser and "mail" should not
> return your email client, etc? That wouldn't make any kind of sense if the
> goal is to make sure that searches is only useful if you have the precise
> name. I don't understand why that should ever be a goal. You know, there was
> a time when the web didn't use search engines, but hierarchical menus. The
> claim that searches require you to use exact phrases, obviously isn't true.
> Otherwise, searches would never have replaced directories on the web.
>> - the current Dash is good for the complete newbie who has lots of
>> time to look around . Needs to be shown pretty big icons. Needs to
>> be informed that there are tons of additional apps .
>> But what about the users who are already familiar with Linux and Ubuntu ?
> If the icons are made smaller, then there's no space to have text. I've used
> Gnome since 1999 and Ubuntu since November 2005. Is it my experience you're
> worried about? Please don't. To me, Unity is the easiest and most efficient
> desktop I've ever used.
>> I might become happy with the Dash if I were given the chance to
>> customize it a bit :
>> - select a small icons size
>> - disable the Apps available for Download
> You mean such as unselecting the online scope in the applications lens?
I mean : hiding the "apps available for download"
>> - select a preference that i want to always see all results (
>> disable "see more N results " ) .
>> - specify how many "recently used" items i'd like to see
> Then you have two choices; accept that your dash will be extremely slow, or
> make sure you cannot find all your stuff. Which do you prefer? I prefer the
> third choice; limit the number of entries displayed by default and enable me
> to find anything.
I prefer the fourth choice : that it remembers that i have expanded
the "see more ". And keep that screen section expanded for the next
searches, until i click "see fewer results" .
>> I really don't need to have half of the screen occupied with
>> applications suggested to be installed. I know how to install
>> software .
> Then just disable that. It isn't exactly difficult if you're looking for
> solutions instead of looking for things to complain about.
>>> Why? You have to explain these things. Simply stating that a single
>>> is more efficient than a grid, makes no sense.
>> 1. Moving from one category to another is possible by hovering the
>> mouse . I consider this more comfortable and easy.
> Yes. That is a big problem with the old menus that's been known for decades.
> It is difficult to use for new users since it requires advanced mouse
> skills. People with reduced fine muscle movement, such as patients with
> Parkinsons decease will have terrible problems since a small movement will
> move you into a different category. It is difficult to use if you have
> reduced vision. Etc.
>> 2. All the applications are visible immediately in a category. You
>> don't need to click on "see more results" .
> Yes, in the age of web apps, for instance, this is a perfect solution.
> Imagine having a thousand entries in the Internet category.
>> 3. Smaller icons means that more items fit on the screen .
> That is not necessarily true. It is only a single column, which means you
> use a much smaller part of your screen. With Unity, on the other hand, you
> use the entire screen.
>> 4. A compact view means less scrolling and less click on "see more
>> results" . This is a good thing.
> No, using a single column instead of a grid means more scrolling.
>> 5. Did i mention that with a classic menu there is no need to click a
>> "see more results" ?
> You did. You need to scroll instead. And loading a thousand icons still
> takes time using a "classic menu".
>>>> Also, I still claim that any application can be started with exactly 2
>>>> This is very handy if you know the category.
>>> The number of clicks isn't as important as the time it takes to figure
>>> where to click.
>> Exactly : in gnome2 / xfce i can see quickly see the categories
>> and the applications inside the category .
>> It's a compact view that can be navigated based on mouse hover .
> Again; it is not called gnome2. It is called Gnome Panel. It has always been
> available, has never been removed and if you prefer it, you should use it.
> This is not the idea of Unity. If you prefer to use Gnome Panel, then just
> use it. It will never make sense to try and push the old work flow onto a
> different product. You should either adapt to the Unity workflow, or keep
> using Gnome Panel or some other "classic" environment.
I am quite certain that last summer (when I have tried Unity in
11.04) i did not come across the possibiity to do that .
And Ubuntu 11.04 wasn't released with Gnome3 .
>>>> But there is a strong repelling attitude against such features. However
>>>> resistance doesn't make enough sense : I am not suggesting to remove
>>>> the existing "solution". It's about _adding_ a feature .
>>> Yes, and you are not the only user. You speak as if adding features have
>> Why does bother you so much the existence of a classical apps menu ?
>> I am not suggesting it be forced upon everyone . I am NOT suggesting
>> that the Dash
>> should be removed.
> It is extremely rude to twist other peoples words like that. I've never ever
> expressed any kind of misgivings about the classic menu. Quite the contrary.
> I've spent large amounts of time working advocating for keeping it. That's
> not the same as using it as a default in Unity.
There were some misunderstandings here .
It was never my intention to suggest changing anything in the defaults.
All that I wanted was some sort of button or menu or 'something' that
would display a classic apps menu. Not enabled by default : only
have the possibility to enable it within Unity .
And in your last email you have whispered the information that it's
possible to enable the gnome panel. Excellent information . Many
thanks for it ....
> This was from a private email you sent me where you claimed that
> right-clicking on the desktop should display the menus you want. My response
> was that if all users should have menus for everything they wanted in the
> desktop by default, it would mean an extremely large menu, which would make
> it extremely difficult to use. This was an effort to explain why simply
> "_adding_ a feature" is not without consequences.
I am fully aware that the Dash would not be replaced with something
else in the near future. So I have mentioned the idea of right-click
on the desktop because it felt less intrusive . It was just a
I have mentioned the idea of having such a menu displayed
>>> If we add all features that any user on the internet wants,
>>> then you'll have a desktop menu with thousands of entries. You're the
>>> first person I've seen to ask for this.
>> I don't know how many users would like to have a classic apps menu in
>> addition to the Dash .
>> And you don't know it either.
> The difference is that I know that you can easily add it if you want it. You
> would also know this if you had asked for it, instead of being angry that
> you can't.
> Here's an example for you: http://ubuntuone.com/0X1JuF6HRTwEb5U1JyIk1D
> This has nothing at all to do with Gnome 2. It has to do with Gnome Panel,
> which is just as available in Gnome 3 as it is in Gnome 2. If it's
> identical, then how can it be less customizable?
>> I can't comment about Gnome3 because i didn't try yet due to
>> Canonical's decision to develop from scratch its own desktop
>> experience ...
> I told you before, Ubuntu uses Gnome 3 by default. If you've tried Unity,
> you have also tried Gnome 3. And if Canonical makes a product, that means
> you cannot use other products? I don't understand that. It's not as if Unity
> has removed the old application menu or anything like that.
But isn't the inclusion of gnome3 something relatively new - maybe
I had the feeling that Ubuntu 11.04 was released with gnome2 .
There are even various howtos about "how to install gnome 3 in ubuntu
>> By "panels" i am referring to those areas that can be placed on the
>> screen edges and where I can add launchers, window list ,
>> notifications, clock, drawers, and tons of other stuff. Gnome2
>> and Xfce4 support such panels. Unity doesn't .
> Of course it does. Why do you make such claims? If you don't know something,
> then ask. And you keep referring to it as Gnome 2, which is complete
> nonsense since Gnome 3 is identical in this regard. The name is Gnome Panel.
> Not Gnome 2. It is completely usable with Unity. It always has been. I would
> recommend that you spend some time on http://AskUbuntu.com. Fewer claims,
> more questions.
If it is a well-known fact that the Gnome panel is usable easily in
Unity , how is it possible that nobody did hit me with that
information immediately after i've begun to talk about how much i'm
missing the classic apps menu ?
I had to irritate you a bit before you whispered the suggestion to
start the gnome-panel .
I've just tried it and it indeed works : now i have "Applications"
and "Places" in the top left corner of the screen . This is perfect
: I would probably set to autohide the bottom bar , because all that
i wished was to have the old apps menu "somewhere" on the screen .
Many Thanks !