dhis2-devs team mailing list archive

[Jason Pickering <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi there,
I have chatted with Thuy about this, and want to try and distill out what
the issue here is. My understanding is as follows, but this may not be 100%
so Thuy,please review carefully. Data is being collected in terms of totals
and groups of interest. So,


   1. Patients - Total - Infection(Date element type) refers to the total
   number of patients for a particular syndrome.
   2. Patients -  Children < 15 - Infection - Total(Date element type)
   refers to the total number of patients for a particular syndrome under 15.
   3. Patients -  Children < 15 - Infection - 0-4(Date element type) refers
   to the total number of patients for a particular syndrome under 4.

So, in this case, there are three categories (wait a second and let me
explain, as I know you are going to say, no, there are only two, under 15
and 0-4). In Viet Nam's case, they are not recording the component parts of
a particular total. As the category combos have been implemented to date,
there are implicit rules about how the category options relate to each
other.

So, Patient-Total-Infection= Over 15 + Children < 15 (but in this case the
left hand side of the equation is recorded, along with the Children Under
15). The over 15 age group can be derived of course.

Likewise, Patient-Total-Infection= Over 15 (not recorded explicity) + (15->4
+ 4->0). Similarly, the 15-4 age group is not explicitly recorded but rather
can be derived from the different parts.

I am not sure I really understand the complete issue here, but I think I do
understand this part, and want to use it to begin possibly another long
thread on the the categories/dimensions issue. (Yeah, oh no). The issue for
me here is that in Thuy's example the total is actually being recorded,
along with two groups of interest that are important for reporting. It seems
not a bad approach really, as you can simply count up the totals for a
particular syndrome, and then search for all under 4s, instead of having to
look at each entry in the patient register and figure out what their age
group is. I will not debate about the merits of this approach, but I can
understand why it is used, as it responds to user needs and may even result
in some efficiency during the tally process perhaps. This is not the issue I
want to raise here but may deserve some consideration in a seperate thread
about best practice.

The issue for me is that in the current categorycombos implementations, it
is assumed that you collect the component parts. So, in order to get it
right in DHIS, we would need to collect (Over 15, 15-4 and Under 4) and
allow the application to calculate the total.  Instead, in Viet Nam they
collect the total, Under 15 (equivalent to the sum of 15-0) and Under 4,
which of course, can be used to derive the categories above.

I see this as implicitly constraining, as it makes assumptions about how the
workflow actually takes place. Categories need flexible internal rules about
how 1) Aggregation to a total takes place and 2) which elements are actually
input. If Thuy would create four category combos, it would seem to solve the
problem.

1) A total category, which would be input rather than calculated (Under 15 +
Over 15)
2) Over 15, which would not be input but could be calculated from other
parts
3) Under 15, which would be input but which is essentially a subtotal within
the category combination (15-4 + Under 4)
4) 15-4, which would not be input but could be calculated from other parts
6) Under 4, which would be input, but which is not a subtotal.


It seems reasonable to me. Perhaps unusual for the forms I am used to
seeing, but I am not convinced at this point that it would result in any
difference than collecting (Over 15, 15.4 and Under 4). Three data values
are entered, but are composed differently than what the categorycombo
functionality assumes should be input.

I think this highlights the fact that we need 1) more flexible rules for
what gets input versus calcuated and 2) not to assume that the total itself
will not be entered.

I am still not sure about all of the issues that Thuy raises, but I wanted
to try and express this very clearly for the benefit of the list.

Regards,
Jason



On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Ola Hodne Titlestad <olatitle@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> 2009/12/7 Jason Pickering <jason.p.pickering@xxxxxxxxx>
>
> Hi Thuy,
>> Interesting. Just another question? You do not record data for each
>> clinic?
>>
>> So, if I understand this correctly there is a category "clinics", which
>> refers to the number of clinics which have a specific condition?
>>
>> So, you could have 10 clinics with 10 cases each, for a total of 100
>> cases, or 1 clinic with a 100 cases for a total of 100 cases as well?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Thuy Nguyen <thuy.hispvietnam@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason,
>>> I had attached the file with translation.
>>>
>>>
> Thanks Thuy,
>
> some questions inline.
>
>
>> *I. What I had done for this report in the DHIS2*
>>> Data elements are deseases' names:
>>>
>>>    - Tả - Cholera
>>>    -
>>>    - Thương hàn, phó thương hàn -Typhoid and paratyphoid fevers
>>>    - Ỉa chảy do Shigella - Shigellosis
>>>    - Lỵ amip - Amoebiasis
>>>    - ...
>>>
>>> Data element group names  are
>>>
>>>    - Chapter I : Certain infectious and parasistic dieases
>>>    - Chapter II : Neoplasms
>>>    - ...
>>>
>>> ICDX are data elements' codes
>>>
>>> Category combination is : *CategoryCombination_B09T*. This category
>>> combination has category is : *Category_B09T. *This category includes 9
>>> category options listed below
>>>
>>>    1. Clinics - Total
>>>
>>> infections + deaths?
>
>>
>>>    1. Clinics - Children
>>>
>>> how old are these children?
>
>>
>>>    1. Clinics - Death
>>>    2. Patients - Total - Infection
>>>    3. Patients - Total - Death
>>>    4. Patients -  Children < 15 - Infection - Total
>>>    5. *Patients -  Children < 15 - Infection - 0-4*
>>>
>>> so these are children under 5 years?
>
>>
>>>    1. *Patients -  Children < 15 - Death - Total*
>>>    2. *Patients -  Children < 15 - Death - 0-4*
>>>
>>> What do you do if someone asks to know the total of infections for
> Cholera for both clinics and (in) patients?
> Or say, want to know the total of cholera infections for children under 5
> years?
>
> CategoryCombos and categories, when used wisely can give such sub totals
> automatically and make it available in a data analysis tools that a doctor
> or health worker with some training could manage. Even better, could give
> you all those options broken down by categories such as Age, Place,
> TypeOfVisit or what have you. Your outputs (reports, charts, maps, pivot
> tables) become very dependent on programmer skills and are very hard coded,
> which is fine for static excel reports, but not much more.
>
> I can see that you are getting your data entry form and static excel report
> this way, but I would not recommend this approach to anyone that is trying
> to use DHIS as a data analysis tool. This approach limits the functions of
> DHIS to a hard coded reporting tool, which might be what is needed in
> Vietnam right now, but in a year or two you might be asked to provide other
> outputs and then you are stuck with this very static and hard coded design
> which will make it very difficult for you to respond to new requirements and
> needs.
>
> That's my opinion anyway.
>
> Ola
> ---------
>
>
>> *II What I had done in for generate this report in Excel Report module*
>>>
>>> The report items are :
>>>
>>>    1. Serial (This will list all of *Số TT - No.* column)
>>>    2. Diseases by categories (This are data element name item type, this
>>>    list of data element names and data element groupnames would be generated
>>>    automatically)
>>>    3. ICDX code (Data element code type)
>>>    4. Clinics - Total (Date element type)
>>>    5.
>>>    6. Clinics - Children (Date element type)
>>>    7. Clinics - Death(Date element type)
>>>    8. Patients - Total - Infection(Date element type)
>>>    9. Patients - Total - Death(Date element type)
>>>    10. Patients -  Children < 15 - Infection - Total(Date element type)
>>>    11. Patients -  Children < 15 - Infection - 0-4(Date element type)
>>>    12. Patients -  Children < 15 - Death - Total(Date element type)
>>>    13. Patients -  Children < 15 - Death - 0-4(Date element type)
>>>
>>> All of those items are defined the position of the start cells in the
>>> excel files (refer to the *excel user manual excel report document*)
>>> And this report would be generate automatically.
>>> So if there is any category option added, example Hospital.
>>> In the design data entry form stage. I just put some elements of the new
>>> columns into the existing data entry form.
>>> In the designing report stage, I will create the 13th item named
>>> Hospital. and the report would generate that option beside others. And data
>>> elements list still list same with the old ones. Not list other data
>>> elements names.
>>>
>>> I hope you get me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Thuy
>>> HISP Vietnam
>>> +84902079126
>>>
>>
>>
>