elementary-dev-community team mailing list archive

[Cassidy James <c@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Scott, you honestly sound like you're trolling at this point. "We" are
elementary. Replace "we" in every one of those instances with "elementary"
and perhaps it's more clear.

> You say you can't rely on developers?

Nope. I'm saying elementary should not have to rely on the people who are
graciously donating things such as the server, bandwidth, build services,
etc.
On Jul 3, 2012 4:00 PM, "Scott Ringwelski" <sgringwe@xxxxxxx> wrote:

> Cassidy, I find one consistent theme throughout your email, and that is
> that you see yourself as above non-council members. Let's see a few
> examples:
>
> "First we need to be able to operate independently before starting any
> sort of a payroll."
> "We're not paying anyone for anything at this point. If and when that
> time comes, we'll deal with that."
> You say "We're" and "we'll" as if you are the employer and the non-council
> contributors are your employees. No. Not at all. This is a group of people
> working on an open source project. Nobody is higher up than anyone else,
> other than the respect you earn by how much work you put in. IMO, Sergey is
> higher up than anyone else given the amount of work he gets done doing what
> we all hate: packaging. But yet you act as if when the time comes that
> elementary may have some extra money, you/council will decide who gets
> money and who doesn't, and how much. To me, this sounds like corruption at
> its finest.
>
> "As nice as that is, we won't necessarily be able to rely on them
> forever."
> Again with the we. You say you can't rely on developers? Well, who says
> you can rely on council? What has you or Dan done over many of the
> dedicated developers such as Victor, Lucas, and Sergey that proves your
> word that you will be a part of this project in years to come over theirs?
>
> "Again, we're not starting any sort of a payroll any time in the immediate
> future."
> And, who manages this payroll? Why? What financial expertise do you have
> that others don't?
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Cassidy James <c@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 3, 2012 3:19 PM, "Scott Ringwelski" <sgringwe@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >
>> > Putting the democratic issue aside for a moment, please explain this:
>> >
>> > 1. You have said numerous times how you would love to be able to pay
>> your developers.
>>
>> That would obviously be very far down the line once elementary is a legal
>> entity and self-sustainable. As it is, we're greatly indebted to people who
>> have graciously spent large amounts of money to donate services and
>> resources. As nice as that is, we won't necessarily be able to rely on them
>> forever. First we need to be able to operate independently before starting
>> any sort of a payroll.
>>
>> > 2. You just mentioned that it's best to have the people most involved
>> in the topic make the call.
>>
>> Correct. Organizing elementary as an entity has always been the
>> responsibility of the Council.
>>
>> > 3. From this, we can clearly see that developers absolutely should be a
>> key part of the process of deciding how elementary will handle funding,
>> donations, etc.
>>
>> It's not so clear as you imply. We're not paying anyone for anything at
>> this point. If and when that time comes, we'll deal with that.
>>
>> > Yet, you somehow think that "this is a web design issue and not
>> something that needs to be run through you first for approval"? Now that...
>> that is absurd.
>>
>> The specific issue is a web design issue, yes. As previously stated, we
>> should not have to have everyone vote decide upon every decision. For
>> example, we don't ask the developers for their input on how and where we
>> should manage ads on the site; the web team is better suited for that and
>> they make those calls under supervision of the Council.
>>
>> > Unless you plan to only pay yourself, this is absolutely something that
>> needs to be run through everybody. In fact, if there was one decision that
>> the whole elementary team should be involved in, it is this one.
>>
>> Again, we're not starting any sort of a payroll any time in the immediate
>> future. Would that be nice? Sure. But neither Dan, myself, other Council
>> members, nor any contributors are compensated for their efforts at this
>> point.
>>
>> We'll definitely listen to feedback once we're a little closer that
>> reality. Until then, it'd be great to take a minute to remember why we do
>> what we do. We are all about making the most incredible user experience
>> available to all. Let's not forget that we all do this in our free time
>> because we're passionate about design, open source, and community.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Cassidy James
>>
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Daniel Foré <daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Yes I am. I really think direct-democracy is just a bad idea.
>> Historically, we've made good decisions by having the people most involved
>> in the topic make the call.
>> >>
>> >> When we're talking about a decision around our developer story, It's
>> best to consult with our developers.
>> >>
>> >> When we're talking about a decisions around our design story, it's
>> best to consult with our designers.
>> >>
>> >> With our Web story, our web team.
>> >>
>> >> Our translations, our (admittedly new) translation team.
>> >>
>> >> Requiring that everyone have a say in everything is not only going to
>> lead to un-informed decisions, but it's going to slow our process way down.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Scott Ringwelski <sgringwe@xxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Dan, are you asking why elementary should follow a democratic,
>> whole-team decision making process rather than a more centralized decision
>> making process?
>> >>>
>> >>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Daniel Foré <daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> As it turns out, we have families and lives and jobs and
>> responsibilities outside of elementary. That means that we're not always
>> able to meet every week and discuss every issue.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In my personal opinion, this is a web design issue and not something
>> that needs to be run through you first for approval. But I'd be interested
>> to find out from other people why they think we need to directly
>> democratize our web design or any design for that matter.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you're upset because you can't get your demands met on a certain
>> time schedule I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you. You may not be
>> aware, but this week celebrates our independence in the US. So there's a
>> lot of family flooding in and I'm super busy juggling my very extended
>> family. I can guarantee I won't be able to make the meeting again this
>> Saturday because it's also my mother's birthday.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I wish you luck in your next endeavor and hope you don't harbor any
>> ill will towards elementary. You're always welcome back at any time.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:05 AM, Сергей Давыдов <shnatsel@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Okay, it's been a week. In addition, a Council meeting should have
>> >>>>> taken place three days ago. This seems to be quite enough time to
>> >>>>> settle on something and write a reply.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> To speed up the discussion, I stop pretending that everything is all
>> >>>>> right and cease any work on elementary till I receive an answer to
>> my
>> >>>>> question.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Best Regards,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Daniel Foré
>> >>>>
>> >>>> elementaryos.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >>>> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> >>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Best Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Daniel Foré
>> >>
>> >> elementaryos.org
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> > Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>> > More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>> >
>>
>
>