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Message #34036
Re: [RFC] Change to object visibility system for usability/clarity
That's how I see it. If I turn off the top copper layer and the
footprints are linked to the layer then I want to turn off the footprint
pads on that layer. The remaining footprint layers would still be
visible (silk screen, solder, mask, etc.). Through hole layers may be
tricking. I don't think we really have a concept of the top or bottom
copper of a through hole layer.
On 02/18/2018 09:03 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
> Those are interesting ideas. My reading is that Andrey and Wayne are
> actually proposing two different "linking" modes:
>
> Andrey: linking Front and Back (i.e. checking Front pads also checks
> Back pads)
> Wayne: linking copper and render (i.e. checking F.Cu also checks Front pads)
>
> Am I right about your suggestion, Wayne?
>
> I think from my personal perspective as a user, I would expect by
> default Wayne's link to be on and Andrey's to be off.
> That is, by default if I turn off F.Cu I expect Front Pads to go away
> too, but there might be edge cases where I want to turn on F.Cu and turn
> off F.Pads or vice versa.
>
> -Jon
>
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov <kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
> Wayne,
> Yep, that's what I meant, kind of like the Photoshop linked layers.
>
> I should have added that the link is only between two of the same
> checkboxes that are front and bottom. Ie Front/Bottom Pads would
> have linkage, a different linkage would be between F/B Text, and
> another for etc...
>
> Please don't link multiple text/pads/vias/footprints together. I
> think linking should only be between Front and Bottom of the same
> item type. Maybe add a tiny horizontal separator between the pairs
> of Front and Bottom rows: ie
> Front Pads
> Bottom Pads
> -----------------
> Front Text
> Bottom Text
> -----------------
> etc
>
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 5:49 PM, Wayne Stambaugh
> <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
> I was thinking the same thing but rather than locked, I was thinking
> linked to the layer but the concept is the same. If they are
> linked,
> when the layer is turned off, so are the footprints on that
> layer. When
> they are unlinked, they are independent similar to the current
> behavior.
> I would default to linked since that is what most users would
> expect.
>
> On 02/18/2018 08:42 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov wrote:
> > Hi Jon,
> >
> > Make sure Andrews' patches are consistent with your commits, essentially
> > don't commit if it'll end up as a hodge podge of code that even though
> > it works is not coherent.
> >
> > I can see benefits to having control over showing front copper pads but
> > hiding bottom copper pads, so I would keep them separate.
> > If it's an annoyance to toggle both front and bottom copper checkboxes
> > for pads, maybe a LOCK is warranted such that in a locked position, a
> > toggle checkbox in either, toggles both checkboxes for front/bottom, and
> > an unlocked state keeps them independent.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Jon Evans <jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to go to the user forum with these questions too, but
> > curious what the devs think about this:
> >
> > In my original RFC, I proposed eliminating the different between
> > "front" and "back" in the Render checkboxes.
> > I still think this makes sense for things like text and footprints,
> > but I'm having second thoughts about merging the "Pads Front" and
> > "Pads Back"
> > Right now we have pads set to a different color than other copper on
> > the front and back copper layers.
> > I guess some users probably like this and would get annoyed if we
> > removed the ability for pads to be a special color.
> > Will they get annoyed if we force them to set both the front and the
> > back pads to the same color?
> >
> > (to be honest, I am used to EDA tools that by default treat pads as
> > part of the copper layer and show them in the same color, so I don't
> > care about this feature)
> >
> > -Jon
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Jon Evans <jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Wayne and Jeff (and yes there are a lot of edge cases
> > here to sort out)
> >
> > Note that Andrzej Wolski already did propose some changes
> > related to this that might be good to merge as a first step.
> > I have only done limited testing on them so far but they do work
> > and resolve some of the problems:
> >
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6>
> >
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890/comments/6>>
> >
> https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg34009.html
> <https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg34009.html>
> > <https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg34009.html
> <https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg34009.html>>
> >
> > -Jon
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:53 PM, Jeff Young <jeff@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jeff@xxxxxxxxx>
> > <mailto:jeff@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:jeff@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jon,
> >
> > Sounds good to me too. A few edge-cases you might want to
> > watch out for:
> >
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894>
> > <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1733894>>
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521>
> > <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744521>>
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730>
> > <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1744730>>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jeff.
> >
> >
> >> On 18 Feb 2018, at 22:36, Wayne Stambaugh
> >> <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey Jon,
> >>
> >> I'm good with all of this. I would like to get this
> >> cleaned up before the stable release if possible since
> >> there are so many complaints and bug reports about it.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Wayne
> >>
> >> On 02/18/2018 03:00 PM, Jon Evans wrote:
> >>> Hi all,
> >>> Right now the behavior of the "Layer" and "Render" tabs
> >>> of the layers widget are confusing to users, resulting in
> >>> complaints on the forum and some bug reports:
> >>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181>
> >>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1748181>>
> >>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890>
> >>> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890
> <https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1743890>>
> >>> I could take a crack at fixing this (before or
> after 5.0
> >>> depending on what the complexity ends up being) but
> >>> before I write any code I wanted to propose how
> I think
> >>> it should work.
> >>> I think the visibility of any object should be
> the AND of
> >>> layer visibility and render visibility.
> >>> To get there:
> >>> 1) In the Render tab, get rid of the distinction
> between
> >>> front/back. For example "Pads Back" and "Pads Front"
> >>> becomes just "Pads"
> >>> 2) Change the visibility code so that an object is
> >>> visible if (a) the associated Render setting is
> turned on
> >>> for the type of object, and (b) at least one of the
> >>> layers the object is on is enabled in the Layers
> tab.
> >>> 3) (optionally) Rename "Render" to something more
> >>> friendly like "Items" or "Item Types" to make it
> more
> >>> clear to the user that this is where they can
> turn off
> >>> the display of various types of items as opposed to
> >>> various layerse
> >>> If this plan is OK, I will start working out the
> details
> >>> of how to get there. Right now the Render tab is
> >>> directly controlling the visibility of certain "GAL
> >>> Layers" but unfortunately the set of objects
> that appears
> >>> on one GAL layer is not always equal to the set of
> >>> objects that the user would expect to turn on
> and off, as
> >>> seen by the bug reports. So, there will have to
> be some
> >>> additional logic created to manage these
> settings beyond
> >>> just turning on and off layers in the GAL.
> >>> -Jon
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
> > Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss the
> > future [JFK]
> >
> > kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>>
> > Live Long and Prosper,
> > Andrey
>
>
>
>
> --
> Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
> Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss
> the future [JFK]
>
> kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
> Live Long and Prosper,
> Andrey
>
>
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