kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Thomas Pointhuber <thomas.pointhuber@xxxxxx>]

I agree that it would be very beneficial (especially for 3rd-party
tools) to have a standardized naming convention.

Related discussions:

 *
https://forum.kicad.info/t/default-manufacturers-part-number-field-in-kicad-libraries/4387/65

 * https://github.com/KiCad/kicad-library/issues/808

I don't see much harm done when new projects have some standard names
set as "Default Fields". It rather simplifies the work and would for
example also allow the library to add MPN in the future.

My 50cents: I would prefer "Manufacturer Part Number" or similar instead
of the abbreviation "MPN", to help new users understanding the meaning
of the field.

Regards, Thomas

Am 2018-05-21 um 15:13 schrieb Marcos Chaparro:
> I second Kristoffer. Some made with kicad examples are mine, some use
> #mfg and some use MPN because there is no common way to address a
> basic thing like a part number and for me it changed over the years,
> rendering old projects hard to maintain. Now I'leaning towards MPN
> only because kicost didn't support (or I coudnlt figure out) a #mfg
> field.
>
> Those who want a different field name can add a new field and use it,
> but IMO kicad needs some common ground on this particular issue.
>
> Marcos
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 8:55 AM, Kristoffer Ödmark
> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>
> wrote:
>
>     No, that is one usage of it, some people likes to make the
>     schematic their bom, some tools and services can also rely on such
>     values.
>
>     Once again, the only people complaining are the ones that do not
>     use it, and also the ones that will not be affected. Sure name it
>     PartNum and use it the way you describe, you would never use any
>     other tools to interact anyway, since that apparently is not your
>     job... I only want there to be a common denomination for the the
>     field names by default.
>
>     Because right now, anyone who actually uses the Schematic this
>     way, which are quite many will always have to randomly define and
>     abbreviate the same field, which just hinders anything smart to be
>     done on top of it.
>
>     To better go with your thinking, I suggest you remove all the
>     keybindings i KiCad, and then set them to what you want. That way
>     you will get the current field experience. Everything is better
>     with no defaults, amiright?
>
>      -Kristoffer
>
>     On 2018-05-21 06:13, Jean-Paul Louis wrote:
>
>         That discussion once again shows how people misunderstand the
>         concept of part number.
>         In a schematic, the part number attached to a RefDes should be
>         unique AND NOT a manufacturer number.
>            There should be a one to one relationship between a part
>         number (symbol) and a physical shape, so the PCB will be a
>         unit manufacturable only when the BOM is generated, and is one
>         to one relationship between part number and Mfg part number.
>         The BOM is only for manufacturing assembly and procurement purpose
>         and does not need to be part of the design database, so
>         Manufacturing can use Equivalent Mfg numbers for a given part
>         number. That’s why many companies use internal numbering
>         systems that are non picture coded and just sequential.
>         The relationship Symbol, Shape, Supplier is the responsibility
>         of the master library, not the designers.
>
>         Just my $0.02,
>         Jean-Paul
>         N1JPL
>
>
>
>             On May 20, 2018, at 6:27 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov
>             <kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
>             I agree, I had the same issue when I was doing my board, I
>             needed a field for all components, and I had to manually
>             add it for every item, there was no way to add this field
>             to all components at the same time or to have it add by
>             default from the addition of a new component to the sheet.
>
>             Which reminds me, Cadence Designer has tools to manipulate
>             fields on a large scale, whether to add, delete, show,
>             hide, etc, this is something that would be nice to have in
>             KiCAD, either that or a table of all components for the
>             sheet or schematic and columns for each field, with
>             ability to show/hide each cell individually.
>
>             I think the ultimate goal is to make the Symbol Table more
>             useful, but that'll take to long for v5 so if Kristoffer's
>             patch allows an easy way to add fields to all components
>             or similar, I'd say do it because people will be pissed
>             and waste their time doing it for every component in their
>             schematic.
>
>             On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:01 PM, kristoffer Ödmark
>             <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>             <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>             I obvviously disagree, the correct solution would be to
>             have both. This does not hinder that, its not even the
>             same problem.
>
>             The problem is for everyone who want for example the
>             Manufacturer Part Number will have to define a fieldname,
>             which every time
>             results in them abbreviating it to something different.
>             Hence nobody can work with Manufacturer Part Numbers.
>
>             Here is something similar, Imagine all of the colours in
>             Kicad for all of the layers where white by default. Have
>             fun defining all the colours yourself.
>             Maybe you want to define them yourself, nobody is stopping
>             you now either, just get cracking.
>
>             How easy would it be for you to look at the board someone
>             else made later and understand what is what? Maybe for
>             some that is a better solution, but for me that
>             would be an extreme example of bad default values.
>
>             This is how the default fields are now, they are white, or
>             more like see-throught, which makes life harder for anyone
>             that
>             wants to contribute or create tools that interact with
>             kicad, and as I previously said, this is only a default,
>             you are still
>             equally able to add/remove or change the fields how you
>             want to. But, tools like kibom or various other web-based
>             tools can much
>             easier integrate to it, or at least support a default
>             value as well. So for the majority of users, who doesnt
>             change defaults,
>             the tool would just work.
>
>             I will reiterate, I do not care what they are named, I
>             want a default field where I can put my manufacturer part
>             number, amongs others.
>             The specific abbreviation or name does not matter, If i
>             care, I can manually add/remove my own fields *JUST AS I
>             DO NOW*, but for the people
>             who use it, it will be easier across projects, for the
>             people that dont, It will not matter.
>
>             Sane defaults matter. A lot actually.
>
>             - Kristoffer
>
>             On 2018-05-20 23:40, José Ignacio wrote:
>             I dont like this, the right solution would be to allow for
>             importing a default config into kicad for things like
>             that, as different groups will have different policies.
>
>             On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Kristoffer Ödmark
>             <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>             <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>             <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>             <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>
>                  The patch should only affect first startup, changes
>             to the fields
>                  will be saved
>
>                  On May 20, 2018 22:18, "Seth Hillbrand"
>             <seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>
>                  <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx
>             <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>
>                      ​Hi Kristoffer-
>
>                      This feels like a management issue rather than a
>             tool issue.
>                      If the user doesn't want any extra fields, how
>             would your
>                      patch allow that?
>
>                      -S
>
>
>                      Am So., 20. Mai 2018 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb
>             kristoffer Ödmark
>                      <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>             <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>                      <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>             <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>>:
>
>
>                          Hello!
>
>                          I will open this can of worms again, I feel
>             that I have
>                          to. So from what
>                          I gather we have proffessionals as the main
>             aim in Kicad.
>                          The reason I will open this issue again is
>             that I feel we
>                          have a
>                          collaboration issue, maybe not a mayor one.
>             But one
>                          nonetheless.
>
>                          We really need more default fields for our
>             schematic
>                          symbols. Im not
>                          proposing required fields, I am *ONLY*
>             proposing that
>                          there should be default fields added into the
>             default
>                          fields settings
>                          tab. I am not proposing they need to be
>             filled in the
>                          libraries, nor that people need to use them.
>             only that
>                          they need to
>                          exist with a fresh install of kicad so that
>             easy problems
>                          such as theese do not happen:
>
>                               - Collaborators working on the same
>             project will not
>                          create
>                          duplicate fields in libs/projects describing
>             the same
>                          thing by mistake
>                               - Projects that aim to interact or add
>             to Kicad can
>                          assume that the
>                          Fields will exist, and will know what
>             name/tag to look for
>                                 (bom exporters, price checkers,
>             MacroFab, etc)
>                               - Open source projects will be easier to
>             collaborate,
>                          read and order
>
>                          The reason I think it is better to have the
>             fields by
>                          default than the
>                          current solution to add them is that the
>             majority will use
>                          what exists, and tools can support it from
>             the very
>                          beginning, people
>                          with inhouse tools seems to dislike this,
>             since they map their
>                          parts with an inhouse number - and then
>             handle the
>                          information about the
>                          part there. From what I gather, this is not
>             the majority, and
>                          these persons still modify the default fields
>             settings.
>
>                          I spent maybe 30-40 mins checking the "made
>             with kicad"
>                          projects, I
>                          found that the most common addition to libs
>             and schematics
>                          are:
>                               - Manufacturers part number, these were
>             named widely
>                          different in
>                          projects, (BOM, MP, MPN, #mfg, or different
>             syntaxes in
>                          the Value field )
>                                   I even saw a mix of these in the
>             same project
>                          once, along with
>                          some people having the vendor id only.
>                               - Manufacturer ( found some different
>             languages though )
>
>                          more uncommon things was, Tolerance( 10%,
>             20pps), Ratings
>                          ( 1/4W, 85C,
>                          16V ), Vendor information and different
>             Descriptions. They
>                          were named
>                          and abbreviated
>                          very differently accross projects.
>
>                          What I would like to see is these additional
>             fields by
>                          default, but
>                          hidden from the schematic unless changed by user.
>                               Tolerance ( used for setting tolerances
>             of resistors,
>                          capacitors,
>                          oscillators, etc )
>                               MaxRating ( field were one can specify
>             max Voltage,
>                          Ampere,
>                          Frequency, or whatever the component needs )
>                               Manufacturer ( For inhouse numbers, they
>             could either
>                          just remove
>                          it, or use the company/group name )
>                               MPN ( Maybe PartNumber could be used
>             here, and people
>                          who use
>                          inhouse numbers use it aswell, I dont really
>             care what its
>                          called, as
>                          long as its called something )
>                               Vendor
>                               Notes
>
>                          I would be all up for extra
>             additions/removals, but I
>                          would prefer if
>                          the naming is not discussed, but rather just
>                          decided/agreed upon by
>                          someone in the lead team.
>                          The very least I think should be added in
>             case the
>                          previous is to much are:
>                               Tolerance
>                               Manufacturer
>                               MPN
>
>                          I attach a patch for the minimal set, tested
>             on linux by
>                          removing the
>                          .config/kicad/eeschema file.
>
>                          - Kristoffer
>
>
>                          ps
>                          Some github files i reviewed, not all:
>                        
>              https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/master/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
>             <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/master/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>
>                        
>              <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/master/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
>             <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/master/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>>
>                        
>              https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20LED%20Device/Blixten.sch
>             <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>
>                        
>              <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20LED%20Device/Blixten.sch
>             <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>>
>                        
>              https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%20design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
>             <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%20design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>
>                        
>              <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%20design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
>             <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%20design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>>
>                        
>              https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_smd.lib
>             <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_smd.lib>
>                        
>              <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_smd.lib
>             <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_smd.lib>>
>                        
>              https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb/electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
>             <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb/electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>
>                        
>              <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb/electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
>             <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb/electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>>
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>             -- 
>             Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
>             Those who look only to the past or the present are certain
>             to miss the future [JFK]
>
>             kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
>             Live Long and Prosper,
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