kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Jeff Young <jeff@xxxxxxxxx>]

I think I like this new patch.  It provides the /opportunity/ for uniformity, without getting in the way of those who want to go their own way.

Do the BOM generators automatically output all default fields or only those with values?

> On 22 May 2018, at 09:22, kristoffer ödmark <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Please disregard my previous mail, it got mangled badly somehow, it did
> not look like that in my editor at least.
> 
> On Mon, 2018-05-21 at 18:22 -0400, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>> Eeschema already supports creating default optional fields in the
>> configuration settings dialog.  Used correctly, these will give you
>> the
>> same optional field names for every project without having to add
>> them
>> by hand to each symbol and possibly typing in different field names
>> by
>> accident.  
> 
> Different users will still type in different field names for the same
> things though. What you describe works as long as there is only one
> person in the entire projects lifetime, using only one computer.
> 
>> The proposed patch would intermingle the default fields
>> with
>> existing schematic symbol fields which would break existing BOMs
>> which I
>> don't think users will appreciate.  
> 
> The proposed patch will only change default settings, existing users
> with a config already in place will not be affected. I realised that
> the fields now accept empty values as well, so existing boms on new
> installations will not be affected either. I updated the patch, so it
> will not affect anyone that doesnt use the fields. 
> 
>> [...] As I've stated before, I can set 10
>> different designers down and I will get 10 different sets of default
>> field names.  This really seems like me to be a configuration issue.
> 
> This is the problems I want to address, because those 10 designers will
> by experience also spell the same field in 10 different ways. Making
> their fields incompatable. MPN, MFPN, #mfg, ManufPart, etc etc. Let
> those 10 designers remove the fields they do not want instead.
> 
>> The only possible solution that I would accept is to move the default
>> field definitions from the eeschema configuration file into the
>> default
>> kicad project file.  This way existing projects would not be polluted
>> with the proposed default fields and users could define their own
>> default fields in a custom project file.  
> 
> Default fields does not pollute if they are empty, they just give a
> hint of what data could be put into the schematic, same as with the
> datasheet field, which is not often used. Funny how noone ever
> complains about that one.
> 
>> [...]
>> A more flexible solution would be to add a "File->New from Custom
>> Template" command to KiCad to allow the user to select any custom
>> project file.  This would allow for multiple custom project files
>> instead of forcing the user to use only a single default project
>> file.
> 
> As long as the "File->New Project" would include the additional fields
> and then people can use "New from Custom Template" means they can use a
> template that is empty. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose. I am
> proposing a slightly different default configuration, not any change in
> how people will use the software.
> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Wayne
>> 
>> On 05/20/2018 06:27 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov wrote:
>>> I agree, I had the same issue when I was doing my board, I needed a
>>> field for all components, and I had to manually add it for every
>>> item,
>>> there was no way to add this field to all components at the same
>>> time or
>>> to have it add by default from the addition of a new component to
>>> the sheet.
>>> 
>>> Which reminds me, Cadence Designer has tools to manipulate fields
>>> on a
>>> large scale, whether to add, delete, show, hide, etc, this is
>>> something
>>> that would be nice to have in KiCAD, either that or a table of all
>>> components for the sheet or schematic and columns for each field,
>>> with
>>> ability to show/hide each cell individually.
>>> 
>>> I think the ultimate goal is to make the Symbol Table more useful,
>>> but
>>> that'll take to long for v5 so if Kristoffer's patch allows an easy
>>> way
>>> to add fields to all components or similar, I'd say do it because
>>> people
>>> will be pissed and waste their time doing it for every component in
>>> their schematic.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:01 PM, kristoffer Ödmark
>>> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>    I obvviously disagree, the correct solution would be to have
>>> both.
>>>    This does not hinder that, its not even the same problem.
>>> 
>>>    The problem is for everyone who want for example the
>>> Manufacturer
>>>    Part Number will have to define a fieldname, which every time
>>>    results in them abbreviating it to something different. Hence
>>> nobody
>>>    can work with Manufacturer Part Numbers.
>>> 
>>>    Here is something similar, Imagine all of the colours in Kicad
>>> for
>>>    all of the layers where white by default. Have fun defining all
>>> the
>>>    colours yourself.
>>>    Maybe you want to define them yourself, nobody is stopping you
>>> now
>>>    either, just get cracking.
>>> 
>>>    How easy would it be for you to look at the board someone else
>>> made
>>>    later and understand what is what? Maybe for some that is a
>>> better
>>>    solution, but for me that
>>>    would be an extreme example of bad default values.
>>> 
>>>    This is how the default fields are now, they are white, or more
>>> like
>>>    see-throught, which makes life harder for anyone that
>>>    wants to contribute or create tools that interact with kicad,
>>> and as
>>>    I previously said, this is only a default, you are still
>>>    equally able to add/remove or change the fields how you want
>>> to.
>>>    But, tools like kibom or various other web-based tools can much
>>>    easier integrate to it, or at least support a default value as
>>> well.
>>>    So for the majority of users, who doesnt change defaults,
>>>    the tool would just work.
>>> 
>>>    I will reiterate, I do not care what they are named, I want a
>>>    default field where I can put my manufacturer part number,
>>> amongs
>>>    others.
>>>    The specific abbreviation or name does not matter, If i care, I
>>> can
>>>    manually add/remove my own fields *JUST AS I DO NOW*, but for
>>> the people
>>>    who use it, it will be easier across projects, for the people
>>> that
>>>    dont, It will not matter.
>>> 
>>>    Sane defaults matter. A lot actually.
>>> 
>>>    - Kristoffer
>>> 
>>>    On 2018-05-20 23:40, José Ignacio wrote:
>>> 
>>>        I dont like this, the right solution would be to allow for
>>>        importing a default config into kicad for things like that,
>>> as
>>>        different groups will have different policies.
>>> 
>>>        On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Kristoffer Ödmark
>>>        <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>            The patch should only affect first startup, changes to
>>> the
>>>        fields
>>>            will be saved
>>> 
>>>            On May 20, 2018 22:18, "Seth Hillbrand"
>>>        <seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>            <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx
>>>        <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>                Hi Kristoffer-
>>> 
>>>                This feels like a management issue rather than a
>>> tool
>>>        issue. 
>>>                If the user doesn't want any extra fields, how
>>> would your
>>>                patch allow that?
>>> 
>>>                -S
>>> 
>>> 
>>>                Am So., 20. Mai 2018 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb
>>> kristoffer Ödmark
>>>                <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>                <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>>:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>                    Hello!
>>> 
>>>                    I will open this can of worms again, I feel
>>> that I have
>>>                    to. So from what
>>>                    I gather we have proffessionals as the main aim
>>> in
>>>        Kicad.
>>>                    The reason I will open this issue again is that
>>> I
>>>        feel we
>>>                    have a
>>>                    collaboration issue, maybe not a mayor one. But
>>> one
>>>                    nonetheless.
>>> 
>>>                    We really need more default fields for our
>>> schematic
>>>                    symbols. Im not
>>>                    proposing required fields, I am *ONLY*
>>> proposing that
>>>                    there should be default fields added into the
>>> default
>>>                    fields settings
>>>                    tab. I am not proposing they need to be filled
>>> in the
>>>                    libraries, nor that people need to use them.
>>> only that
>>>                    they need to
>>>                    exist with a fresh install of kicad so that
>>> easy
>>>        problems
>>>                    such as theese do not happen:
>>> 
>>>                         - Collaborators working on the same
>>> project
>>>        will not
>>>                    create
>>>                    duplicate fields in libs/projects describing
>>> the same
>>>                    thing by mistake
>>>                         - Projects that aim to interact or add to
>>> Kicad can
>>>                    assume that the
>>>                    Fields will exist, and will know what name/tag
>>> to
>>>        look for
>>>                           (bom exporters, price checkers,
>>> MacroFab, etc)
>>>                         - Open source projects will be easier to
>>>        collaborate,
>>>                    read and order
>>> 
>>>                    The reason I think it is better to have the
>>> fields by
>>>                    default than the
>>>                    current solution to add them is that the
>>> majority
>>>        will use
>>>                    what exists, and tools can support it from the
>>> very
>>>                    beginning, people
>>>                    with inhouse tools seems to dislike this, since
>>> they
>>>        map their
>>>                    parts with an inhouse number - and then handle
>>> the
>>>                    information about the
>>>                    part there. From what I gather, this is not the
>>>        majority, and
>>>                    these persons still modify the default fields
>>> settings.
>>> 
>>>                    I spent maybe 30-40 mins checking the "made
>>> with kicad"
>>>                    projects, I
>>>                    found that the most common addition to libs and
>>>        schematics
>>>                    are:
>>>                         - Manufacturers part number, these were
>>> named
>>>        widely
>>>                    different in
>>>                    projects, (BOM, MP, MPN, #mfg, or different
>>> syntaxes in
>>>                    the Value field )
>>>                             I even saw a mix of these in the same
>>> project
>>>                    once, along with
>>>                    some people having the vendor id only.
>>>                         - Manufacturer ( found some different
>>> languages
>>>        though )
>>> 
>>>                    more uncommon things was, Tolerance( 10%,
>>> 20pps),
>>>        Ratings
>>>                    ( 1/4W, 85C,
>>>                    16V ), Vendor information and different
>>>        Descriptions. They
>>>                    were named
>>>                    and abbreviated
>>>                    very differently accross projects.
>>> 
>>>                    What I would like to see is these additional
>>> fields by
>>>                    default, but
>>>                    hidden from the schematic unless changed by
>>> user.
>>>                         Tolerance ( used for setting tolerances of
>>>        resistors,
>>>                    capacitors,
>>>                    oscillators, etc )
>>>                         MaxRating ( field were one can specify max
>>> Voltage,
>>>                    Ampere,
>>>                    Frequency, or whatever the component needs )
>>>                         Manufacturer ( For inhouse numbers, they
>>> could
>>>        either
>>>                    just remove
>>>                    it, or use the company/group name )
>>>                         MPN ( Maybe PartNumber could be used here,
>>> and
>>>        people
>>>                    who use
>>>                    inhouse numbers use it aswell, I dont really
>>> care
>>>        what its
>>>                    called, as
>>>                    long as its called something )
>>>                         Vendor
>>>                         Notes
>>> 
>>>                    I would be all up for extra additions/removals,
>>> but I
>>>                    would prefer if
>>>                    the naming is not discussed, but rather just
>>>                    decided/agreed upon by
>>>                    someone in the lead team.
>>>                    The very least I think should be added in case
>>> the
>>>                    previous is to much are:
>>>                         Tolerance
>>>                         Manufacturer
>>>                         MPN
>>> 
>>>                    I attach a patch for the minimal set, tested on
>>> linux by
>>>                    removing the
>>>                    .config/kicad/eeschema file.
>>> 
>>>                    - Kristoffer
>>> 
>>> 
>>>                    ps
>>>                    Some github files i reviewed, not all:
>>> 
>>>        https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/mas
>>> ter/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
>>>        <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/ma
>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>
>>> 
>>>        <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/ma
>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
>>>        <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/ma
>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>>
>>> 
>>>        https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20L
>>> ED%20Device/Blixten.sch
>>>        <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20
>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>
>>> 
>>>        <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20
>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch
>>>        <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20
>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>>
>>> 
>>>        https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%20
>>> design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
>>>        <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%2
>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>
>>> 
>>>        <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%2
>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
>>>        <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%2
>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>>
>>> 
>>>        https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_sm
>>> d.lib
>>>        <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_s
>>> md.lib>
>>> 
>>>        <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_s
>>> md.lib <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_sm
>>> d.lib>>
>>> 
>>>        https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb/
>>> electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
>>>        <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb
>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>
>>> 
>>>        <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb
>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
>>>        <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb
>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>>
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
>>> Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss
>>> the
>>> future [JFK]
>>> 
>>> kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> Live Long and Prosper,
>>> Andrey
>>> 
>>> 
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