kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Wayne Stambaugh <stambaughw@xxxxxxxxx>]

On 5/22/2018 6:05 AM, Jeff Young wrote:
> I think I like this new patch.  It provides the /opportunity/ for
> uniformity, without getting in the way of those who want to go their own
> way.

The new patch still has the potential to pollute existing project BOMs.
Just because a user hasn't defined any default optional fields does not
mean that they don't have any projects that don't have any optional
fields.  My proposal prevents any pollution of existing projects.  There
may be other ways to achieve this but none came to mind at the moment.

> 
> Do the BOM generators automatically output all default fields or only
> those with values?

It should output all fields defined in schematic symbols regardless if
each optional field is defined in every symbol.  If they are outputting
anything other than that, I would consider this a bug.

> 
>> On 22 May 2018, at 09:22, kristoffer ödmark
>> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Please disregard my previous mail, it got mangled badly somehow, it did
>> not look like that in my editor at least.
>>
>> On Mon, 2018-05-21 at 18:22 -0400, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>>> Eeschema already supports creating default optional fields in the
>>> configuration settings dialog.  Used correctly, these will give you
>>> the
>>> same optional field names for every project without having to add
>>> them
>>> by hand to each symbol and possibly typing in different field names
>>> by
>>> accident.  
>>
>> Different users will still type in different field names for the same
>> things though. What you describe works as long as there is only one
>> person in the entire projects lifetime, using only one computer.
>>
>>> The proposed patch would intermingle the default fields
>>> with
>>> existing schematic symbol fields which would break existing BOMs
>>> which I
>>> don't think users will appreciate.  
>>
>> The proposed patch will only change default settings, existing users
>> with a config already in place will not be affected. I realised that
>> the fields now accept empty values as well, so existing boms on new
>> installations will not be affected either. I updated the patch, so it
>> will not affect anyone that doesnt use the fields. 
>>
>>> [...] As I've stated before, I can set 10
>>> different designers down and I will get 10 different sets of default
>>> field names.  This really seems like me to be a configuration issue.
>>
>> This is the problems I want to address, because those 10 designers will
>> by experience also spell the same field in 10 different ways. Making
>> their fields incompatable. MPN, MFPN, #mfg, ManufPart, etc etc. Let
>> those 10 designers remove the fields they do not want instead.
>>
>>> The only possible solution that I would accept is to move the default
>>> field definitions from the eeschema configuration file into the
>>> default
>>> kicad project file.  This way existing projects would not be polluted
>>> with the proposed default fields and users could define their own
>>> default fields in a custom project file.  
>>
>> Default fields does not pollute if they are empty, they just give a
>> hint of what data could be put into the schematic, same as with the
>> datasheet field, which is not often used. Funny how noone ever
>> complains about that one.
>>
>>> [...]
>>> A more flexible solution would be to add a "File->New from Custom
>>> Template" command to KiCad to allow the user to select any custom
>>> project file.  This would allow for multiple custom project files
>>> instead of forcing the user to use only a single default project
>>> file.
>>
>> As long as the "File->New Project" would include the additional fields
>> and then people can use "New from Custom Template" means they can use a
>> template that is empty. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose. I am
>> proposing a slightly different default configuration, not any change in
>> how people will use the software.
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>> On 05/20/2018 06:27 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov wrote:
>>>> I agree, I had the same issue when I was doing my board, I needed a
>>>> field for all components, and I had to manually add it for every
>>>> item,
>>>> there was no way to add this field to all components at the same
>>>> time or
>>>> to have it add by default from the addition of a new component to
>>>> the sheet.
>>>>
>>>> Which reminds me, Cadence Designer has tools to manipulate fields
>>>> on a
>>>> large scale, whether to add, delete, show, hide, etc, this is
>>>> something
>>>> that would be nice to have in KiCAD, either that or a table of all
>>>> components for the sheet or schematic and columns for each field,
>>>> with
>>>> ability to show/hide each cell individually.
>>>>
>>>> I think the ultimate goal is to make the Symbol Table more useful,
>>>> but
>>>> that'll take to long for v5 so if Kristoffer's patch allows an easy
>>>> way
>>>> to add fields to all components or similar, I'd say do it because
>>>> people
>>>> will be pissed and waste their time doing it for every component in
>>>> their schematic.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:01 PM, kristoffer Ödmark
>>>> <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    I obvviously disagree, the correct solution would be to have
>>>> both.
>>>>    This does not hinder that, its not even the same problem.
>>>>
>>>>    The problem is for everyone who want for example the
>>>> Manufacturer
>>>>    Part Number will have to define a fieldname, which every time
>>>>    results in them abbreviating it to something different. Hence
>>>> nobody
>>>>    can work with Manufacturer Part Numbers.
>>>>
>>>>    Here is something similar, Imagine all of the colours in Kicad
>>>> for
>>>>    all of the layers where white by default. Have fun defining all
>>>> the
>>>>    colours yourself.
>>>>    Maybe you want to define them yourself, nobody is stopping you
>>>> now
>>>>    either, just get cracking.
>>>>
>>>>    How easy would it be for you to look at the board someone else
>>>> made
>>>>    later and understand what is what? Maybe for some that is a
>>>> better
>>>>    solution, but for me that
>>>>    would be an extreme example of bad default values.
>>>>
>>>>    This is how the default fields are now, they are white, or more
>>>> like
>>>>    see-throught, which makes life harder for anyone that
>>>>    wants to contribute or create tools that interact with kicad,
>>>> and as
>>>>    I previously said, this is only a default, you are still
>>>>    equally able to add/remove or change the fields how you want
>>>> to.
>>>>    But, tools like kibom or various other web-based tools can much
>>>>    easier integrate to it, or at least support a default value as
>>>> well.
>>>>    So for the majority of users, who doesnt change defaults,
>>>>    the tool would just work.
>>>>
>>>>    I will reiterate, I do not care what they are named, I want a
>>>>    default field where I can put my manufacturer part number,
>>>> amongs
>>>>    others.
>>>>    The specific abbreviation or name does not matter, If i care, I
>>>> can
>>>>    manually add/remove my own fields *JUST AS I DO NOW*, but for
>>>> the people
>>>>    who use it, it will be easier across projects, for the people
>>>> that
>>>>    dont, It will not matter.
>>>>
>>>>    Sane defaults matter. A lot actually.
>>>>
>>>>    - Kristoffer
>>>>
>>>>    On 2018-05-20 23:40, José Ignacio wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        I dont like this, the right solution would be to allow for
>>>>        importing a default config into kicad for things like that,
>>>> as
>>>>        different groups will have different policies.
>>>>
>>>>        On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Kristoffer Ödmark
>>>>        <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>            The patch should only affect first startup, changes to
>>>> the
>>>>        fields
>>>>            will be saved
>>>>
>>>>            On May 20, 2018 22:18, "Seth Hillbrand"
>>>>        <seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>            <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>        <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>                Hi Kristoffer-
>>>>
>>>>                This feels like a management issue rather than a
>>>> tool
>>>>        issue. 
>>>>                If the user doesn't want any extra fields, how
>>>> would your
>>>>                patch allow that?
>>>>
>>>>                -S
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                Am So., 20. Mai 2018 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb
>>>> kristoffer Ödmark
>>>>                <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>                <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>        <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                    Hello!
>>>>
>>>>                    I will open this can of worms again, I feel
>>>> that I have
>>>>                    to. So from what
>>>>                    I gather we have proffessionals as the main aim
>>>> in
>>>>        Kicad.
>>>>                    The reason I will open this issue again is that
>>>> I
>>>>        feel we
>>>>                    have a
>>>>                    collaboration issue, maybe not a mayor one. But
>>>> one
>>>>                    nonetheless.
>>>>
>>>>                    We really need more default fields for our
>>>> schematic
>>>>                    symbols. Im not
>>>>                    proposing required fields, I am *ONLY*
>>>> proposing that
>>>>                    there should be default fields added into the
>>>> default
>>>>                    fields settings
>>>>                    tab. I am not proposing they need to be filled
>>>> in the
>>>>                    libraries, nor that people need to use them.
>>>> only that
>>>>                    they need to
>>>>                    exist with a fresh install of kicad so that
>>>> easy
>>>>        problems
>>>>                    such as theese do not happen:
>>>>
>>>>                         - Collaborators working on the same
>>>> project
>>>>        will not
>>>>                    create
>>>>                    duplicate fields in libs/projects describing
>>>> the same
>>>>                    thing by mistake
>>>>                         - Projects that aim to interact or add to
>>>> Kicad can
>>>>                    assume that the
>>>>                    Fields will exist, and will know what name/tag
>>>> to
>>>>        look for
>>>>                           (bom exporters, price checkers,
>>>> MacroFab, etc)
>>>>                         - Open source projects will be easier to
>>>>        collaborate,
>>>>                    read and order
>>>>
>>>>                    The reason I think it is better to have the
>>>> fields by
>>>>                    default than the
>>>>                    current solution to add them is that the
>>>> majority
>>>>        will use
>>>>                    what exists, and tools can support it from the
>>>> very
>>>>                    beginning, people
>>>>                    with inhouse tools seems to dislike this, since
>>>> they
>>>>        map their
>>>>                    parts with an inhouse number - and then handle
>>>> the
>>>>                    information about the
>>>>                    part there. From what I gather, this is not the
>>>>        majority, and
>>>>                    these persons still modify the default fields
>>>> settings.
>>>>
>>>>                    I spent maybe 30-40 mins checking the "made
>>>> with kicad"
>>>>                    projects, I
>>>>                    found that the most common addition to libs and
>>>>        schematics
>>>>                    are:
>>>>                         - Manufacturers part number, these were
>>>> named
>>>>        widely
>>>>                    different in
>>>>                    projects, (BOM, MP, MPN, #mfg, or different
>>>> syntaxes in
>>>>                    the Value field )
>>>>                             I even saw a mix of these in the same
>>>> project
>>>>                    once, along with
>>>>                    some people having the vendor id only.
>>>>                         - Manufacturer ( found some different
>>>> languages
>>>>        though )
>>>>
>>>>                    more uncommon things was, Tolerance( 10%,
>>>> 20pps),
>>>>        Ratings
>>>>                    ( 1/4W, 85C,
>>>>                    16V ), Vendor information and different
>>>>        Descriptions. They
>>>>                    were named
>>>>                    and abbreviated
>>>>                    very differently accross projects.
>>>>
>>>>                    What I would like to see is these additional
>>>> fields by
>>>>                    default, but
>>>>                    hidden from the schematic unless changed by
>>>> user.
>>>>                         Tolerance ( used for setting tolerances of
>>>>        resistors,
>>>>                    capacitors,
>>>>                    oscillators, etc )
>>>>                         MaxRating ( field were one can specify max
>>>> Voltage,
>>>>                    Ampere,
>>>>                    Frequency, or whatever the component needs )
>>>>                         Manufacturer ( For inhouse numbers, they
>>>> could
>>>>        either
>>>>                    just remove
>>>>                    it, or use the company/group name )
>>>>                         MPN ( Maybe PartNumber could be used here,
>>>> and
>>>>        people
>>>>                    who use
>>>>                    inhouse numbers use it aswell, I dont really
>>>> care
>>>>        what its
>>>>                    called, as
>>>>                    long as its called something )
>>>>                         Vendor
>>>>                         Notes
>>>>
>>>>                    I would be all up for extra additions/removals,
>>>> but I
>>>>                    would prefer if
>>>>                    the naming is not discussed, but rather just
>>>>                    decided/agreed upon by
>>>>                    someone in the lead team.
>>>>                    The very least I think should be added in case
>>>> the
>>>>                    previous is to much are:
>>>>                         Tolerance
>>>>                         Manufacturer
>>>>                         MPN
>>>>
>>>>                    I attach a patch for the minimal set, tested on
>>>> linux by
>>>>                    removing the
>>>>                    .config/kicad/eeschema file.
>>>>
>>>>                    - Kristoffer
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                    ps
>>>>                    Some github files i reviewed, not all:
>>>>
>>>>        https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/mas
>>>> ter/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
>>>>        <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/ma
>>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>
>>>>
>>>>        <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/ma
>>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
>>>>        <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/ma
>>>> ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>>
>>>>
>>>>        https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20L
>>>> ED%20Device/Blixten.sch
>>>>        <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20
>>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>
>>>>
>>>>        <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20
>>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch
>>>>        <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%20
>>>> LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>>
>>>>
>>>>        https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%20
>>>> design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
>>>>        <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%2
>>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>
>>>>
>>>>        <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%2
>>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
>>>>        <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb%2
>>>> 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>>
>>>>
>>>>        https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_sm
>>>> d.lib
>>>>        <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_s
>>>> md.lib>
>>>>
>>>>        <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_s
>>>> md.lib <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap_sm
>>>> d.lib>>
>>>>
>>>>        https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb/
>>>> electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
>>>>        <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb
>>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>
>>>>
>>>>        <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb
>>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
>>>>        <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_pcb
>>>> /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>>
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>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
>>>> Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to miss
>>>> the
>>>> future [JFK]
>>>>
>>>> kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Live Long and Prosper,
>>>> Andrey
>>>>
>>>>
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