mimblewimble team mailing list archive

[Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Whoops, I meant "We're talking about kindergarten-level civility here."

As in, be nice, don't eat glue, don't hit. Rules that anyone should be able
to follow.

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:44 PM Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:24 PM percytheprefect <
> percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> >And what's the ethos of this project?
>>
>> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance trumps all.
>>
>
> Adoption, usability, and attracting talented collaborators are all
> important. Features and performance are important, but one must take a
> holistic view and balance different objectives.
>
>
>> This is what the MimbleWimble white paper's author had in mind when he
>> released it to the wild -- he came up with a clearly superior solution to
>> other scaling/privacy enhancing technologies.
>>
>
> Monsieur Jedusor is of course welcome to participate, but this project is
> an implementation of an idea by a bunch of people on the internet, and
> those people should decide how to run the project. (And I'm not including
> myself here, I haven't made any contributions to the code.)
>
> >So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides?
>> People with merit. So just to be clear, you are planning on banning people
>> that disagree with you. For instance, I disagree with a code of conduct,
>> will you ban me? I really do think it is a terrible idea that will be used
>> as a tool for political gain down the road.
>>
>
> Nobody said anything about banning disagreement. Disagreeing with a code
> of conduct is not a violation.
>
>
>> Would you accept a superior solution for a problem if the person was
>> "toxic"?
>>
>
> Yes. Codes of conduct that I'm aware of don't ban ideas, they ban toxic
> participants.
>
> I think that, in the long run, encouraging a a positive, civil, and
> welcoming environment will do more for the health of the project than
> allowing people who are unable to be civil participate. We're not talking
> about kindergarten-level civility here.
>
> As a concrete example, the Rust community and project are thriving, by any
> metric I can think of. I think that the code of conduct is a factor in that.
>
>
>> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>>
>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 10:08 PM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 3:08 AM
>> From: igno.peverell@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: percytheprefect <percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <
>> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> > This directly contradicts the ethos of this project.
>>
>> And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we"
>> when making questionable statements, I don't want to be included.
>>
>>
>> Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about
>> how well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally
>> being polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over
>> code"? So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides?
>> People with merit.
>>
>> Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea...
>>
>> - Igno
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM
>> From: percytheprefect@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: Jackson Palmer <hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> >Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively)
>> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin
>> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit
>> entity might be a good idea
>>
>> Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL
>> group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit
>> be my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of
>> authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of
>> this project.
>>
>> >The project needs a Code of Conduct
>>
>> Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems
>> like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't
>> contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of
>> various crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of
>> Conduct". Are you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the
>> project if they don't follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it
>> invites politics into the project instead of promoting a meritocracy.
>>
>> >If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start
>> talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user
>> experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right
>> now, Grin needs to nail that
>>
>> It seems that every cryptocoin project that has a market cap > $1B has a
>> terrible UI/UX. What does that say about the importance of the UI/UX
>> compared to the core protocol? Let developers up the stack figure out how
>> to handle this. We need to build a rock solid foundation for them to build
>> their applications on top of. Let's not get distracted with things that
>> aren't important at this point. No one will spend their time building
>> things on top of Grin if the core protocol is broken.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:03 PM
>> UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM
>> From: hello@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> Adding my thoughts on this:
>>
>> *### Naming*
>>
>> - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with
>> MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will
>> obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to
>> implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest
>> question the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a
>> good answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like
>> blockchain with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions"
>>
>> - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but
>> it's grown on me and is short/sweet.
>>
>> - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody
>> really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there
>> often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin
>> = Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is
>> to simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will
>> naturally gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you
>> holding?" or "I was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest
>> denomination ala a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything
>> tacky ("ingot" sounds tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some
>> have mentioned. My recommendation would be something really simple like
>> "bits' or "microgrin" etc. Something boring/plain.
>>
>> *### Messaging*
>>
>> I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome
>> (benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted
>>
>> *#### What makes Grin awesome*
>>
>> - A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales
>> - Maintains your privacy and security by default
>> - Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining
>>
>> (I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would be
>> great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?)
>>
>> *#### Why you should trust the Grin project*
>>
>> - No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks
>> - Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to
>> - Diverse community of contributing developers with no single controlling
>> enttity
>>
>> *### Other misc. thoughts*
>>
>> - Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively)
>> small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin
>> with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit
>> entity might be a good idea
>> - The project needs a Code of Conduct (@Igno, do you have any experience
>> in this field or should we consult someone who does?)
>> - If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start
>> talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user
>> experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right
>> now, Grin needs to nail that
>>
>> Hope that helps :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> *Jackson.*
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 05:27 PM, Cryptagoras wrote:
>>
>> # Naming
>>
>> I agree with Andrew, that MimbleWimble is more fitting on the
>> transaction-type naming rather than the blockchain. I like Grin and could
>> see it being used for both the blockchain (that have to include MW
>> probably) and the implementation.
>>
>> As for the coin, I agree with Casey Rodarmor that ethereum's subunits
>> structure is extreme and personally find it counter-intuitive. I find no
>> need to add a lot of more new terms, instead combine existing structures
>> with a single base. Assuming a value of 10^8 like Bitcoin, I would propose
>> the following:
>>
>>                        1 ingot  (1-999 ingots) (smallest denomination)
>> 1 tingot   =       1.000 ingots (1-999 thousand ingots)
>> 1 mingot   =   1.000.000 ingots (1-99  million ingots)
>> 1 grin     = 100.000.000 ingots
>>
>> I find/imagine the suggested `galleon` being a bit awkward in practice.
>> So instead you could use `grin(s)` which shares the sound of `green` :P and
>> has a nice play there but also it's very useful to have short easy word.
>>
>> (Another route could be to have `grams` instead of `ingots` and have
>> [grams, kilograms|kg, tons] with 1 `ingot` being the full unit - it would
>> also help spread the SI mass units over imperial :P)
>>
>> Giving names to all subunits causes fragmentation on the communication
>> where some people choose to use the vanity/homage units and others the "SI"
>> ones. Having 3 levels of subunits (with a single base) fits the current way
>> of people using numbers more naturally.
>>
>> # Messaging
>>
>> As for the messaging, I agree with what has been written. The only thing
>> I would add is an answer to a very common question I hear (mainly from
>> hardcore bitcoiners who love MW & Grin). About the plans of getting
>> integrated in a way to Bitcoin (pegged via sidechains) or even a native
>> integration of MW. So it would be good to have an answer to go along with
>> the rest if there's a decision.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging
>> Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:32 PM
>> UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM
>> From: apoelstra@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To: Casey Rodarmor <casey@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mimblewimble@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +0000, Casey Rodarmor wrote:
>> > I"ll bite!
>> >
>> >
>> > Naming
>> > ======
>> >
>> > 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category,
>> > instead of the blockchain type category.
>> >
>> > Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so
>> much
>> > about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol"
>> blockchain in
>> > terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation.
>> >
>> > So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble
>> > transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously,
>> > turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t require a
>> > different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of
>> stake.)
>> >
>>
>> +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how the
>> chain
>> works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the lines
>> of
>> "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW is
>> totally
>> agnostic to that stuff".
>>
>> > 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter
>> connection? I
>> > always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another
>> really
>> > apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s Adventures
>> in
>> > Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the beast
>> has
>> > disappeared.
>> >
>>
>> Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding bank. I
>> like
>> the Chesire Cat connection :P.
>>
>> > 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon
>> would
>> > be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in
>> the
>> > middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it
>> > might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases
>> to
>> > the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small.
>> >
>> > I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three
>> might be
>> > the sweet spot.
>> >
>>
>> I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her lawyers.
>> She"s
>> historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary system
>> might
>> be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my knowledge
>> she has
>> never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble.
>>
>> >
>> > Messaging
>> > =========
>> >
>> > I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition,
>> > it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people
>> understand
>> > the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and
>> avoids
>> > the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit
>> uses.
>> > Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding
>> confidentiality"
>> > section on their home page[2].
>> >
>> > Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good, since
>> they
>> > have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities.
>> > However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations
>> > that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll be an
>> ongoing
>> > but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on point
>> here.
>> >
>> > [0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency
>> > [1] https://etherconverter.online
>> > [2] https://z.cash
>> >
>>
>> We"re not making private transactions possible, there are already a
>> million ways
>> to move wealth around the world covertly. We"re making privacy *cheap* and
>> *accessible*.
>>
>> People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an
>> immediate and
>> direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for
>> maintaining
>> it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are
>> being
>> surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are indirect
>> and
>> invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to
>> pay
>> their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and
>> manipulating
>> them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without
>> anybody
>> throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors.
>>
>> These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their
>> privacy when
>> their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or
>> unavailable. Criminals
>> don"t give a shit.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Poelstra
>> Mathematics Department, Blockstream
>> Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net
>> Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew
>>
>> "A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese
>> who can never find their peace,
>> whether north or south or west or east"
>> --Joanna Newsom
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>