ubuntu-lgbt team mailing list archive

[Robert Wall <robertlikesturtles@xxxxxxxxx>]

A preface: I am not an Ubuntu channel operator, I just hang around in
#ubuntu* channels entirely too often for my own good.

For those who haven't raid the guidelines we're discussing, here's the
link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines

> Language and Subject 
> 
>       * All the #ubuntu channels are visited by people whose ages
>         vary, and whose tolerances of language and subject choice vary
>         equally as much. Please be considerate of everyone and keep
>         all the #ubuntu channels family friendly. For general chatter
>         you can visit #ubuntu-offtopic, but please be aware that there
>         are limits to behaviour and subjects in there also. When using
>         any #ubuntu channel, please avoid the use of swearing and take
>         touchy subject choices such as war, race, religion, politics
>         (unless related to software licencing), gender, sexuality,
>         drugs, questionable legal activities, removing of ones self
>         from the planet are taken to other channels such as #off-topic
>         or ##politics. (Note Freenode Policy when you join those
>         channels.) 

I note that "please avoid..." and "take touchy subjects..." in the above
are enforced as a rule, not a guideline, in most #ubuntu* channels.

On Fri, 2009-04-24 at 13:00 -0400, Doc Kinne wrote:
> my concern with such a "banned topic" is that it targets LGBT people
> and is therefore blatantly discriminatory.

The ban on gender and sexuality discussion does not "target LGBT people"
any more than the ban on political discussion targets anarchists. If it
were unfairly applied, it could do so, but in my experience it is not.

> Now, I say that, at this point, not exactly having READ it so I may be
> talking out of my butt (although that hasn't happened in at least the
> last 5 milliseconds!)

That would probably be a good start, yes :)

> The issue is what is banned by this policy? If I say, "My boyfriend
> and I installed Ubuntu together last night and liked it" will that get
> me kicked out of the channel by this policy?

No.

> Because I'm a boy with a boyfriend, is that not seen as an "LGBT
> topic."

No.

> However, if you tried to kick me out for saying, "My girlfriend and I
> installed Ubuntu..." people would be in an uproar because no one sees
> anything wrong with that.

That wouldn't happen either.

> There cannot be any LGBT policies on our lists.

Did you mean "channels" there? The mailing lists are not covered by the
IRC Guidelines.

> They are discriminatory. There are no Black policies. There are no
> Jewish policies. Why are there LGBT policies?

Discussion of race and religion are also prohibited by the IRC
Guidelines.

> I'm not sure how you can NOT discuss gender because its "usually"
> obvious by the name. Discussions regarding the concept of gender may
> be inappropriate because the channel is for dicussing Ubuntu topics,
> but this is true both for Straights and LGBT people.

That's what the Guidelines mean, in my understanding. I don't think any
of the operators are saying that passing references to "my boyfriend"
should be banned. Discussions with gender as the main topic, or "the
concept of gender" as you put it, are prone to controversy and
disallowed.

> The same thing goes with sexuality. You need to have the SAME
> standards for Straight people and for LGBT people. No one bats an eye
> if a boy mentions his girlfriend or his wife. No one SHOULD bat an eye
> if a boy mentions is boyfriend or his husband. And if someone DOES bat
> an eye, they are in the wrong and need to be dealt with.

They /do/ have the same standards for straight people and LGBT people,
most people /do not/ bat an eye, and people making anti-LGBT comments if
a guy said "my boyfriend..." are likely to get removed (just like people
have been removed for making stupid "no girls on the internet" comments
if someone reveals they're a girl while talking).

> Within the spectrum of sexuality discussions, of course, if a guy and
> a girl are discussion how they got it on last night, I think that
> might be inappropriate to the forum, but not more so and not less so
> than if two guys or two girls were discussing the same thing.

And both are banned.

> So, Jimmy, thank you for bringing it up.
> Scott, THANK YOU for looking into it.

Seconded on both counts. The !o4o policy is one that needs discussing
frequently, close monitoring, and vigorous debate, to make sure that
it's functioning as intended, and not being discriminatory. 

In addition to the Community Council, I'd recommend that someone join
#ubuntu-ops and see if the people there (who are the ones actually
enforcing these guidelines) have anything to say. I may do that later
today.

~ Robert

-- 
Robert Wall <robertlikesturtles@xxxxxxxxx>
Web: http://www.rww.name/
OpenPGP key ID: 6AB3FC6C

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