ubuntu-phone team mailing list archive

[Bob Summerwill <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

That is indeed very good to know.

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 8:28 PM, Mathijs Veen <mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> For the record, I just bought and flashed Ubuntu Touch on a Meizu Pro 5 -
> very possible, and not that hard to do. Cheers,
>
> Hi Mitchell now thats good news. I scanned xda a while back and read there
> was still problems doing that. Could you point me to some details?
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Mitchell Reese <dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > wrote:
>
>> For the record, I just bought and flashed Ubuntu Touch on a Meizu Pro 5 -
>> very possible, and not that hard to do. Cheers,
>>
>> M
>>
>> On 12/09/16 13:14, Mathijs Veen wrote:
>>
>>> Well I am not quite that pessimistic Bob,
>>>
>>> I am just saying if no oems are doing a new Ubuntu phone any time soon,
>>> you would need a relatively current reference device that is stable. Just
>>> to tide every one over till that time does come again. Say an N5 or N6. I
>>> congratulate you on getting your hands on an MX5. I was just a week too
>>> late on that one. Completely surprised at such a limited run. I would take
>>> it of your hands if you' re ditching it :)
>>>
>>> It wasn’t my intention to bash the project to death at all. I do
>>> actually believe in the possibility of breaking into the status quo. If the
>>> proposition is good enough. And I still believe UT can be that. I recently
>>> did a live head-to-head on comparison with a hp windows continuum phone.
>>> And Ubuntu won on some major points hands down. Convergence is pretty awsum
>>> already and the design is as good as any phone I have owned.
>>>
>>> But i think Canonical can't afford to lose the base of users it has now.
>>> So they need a reliable device coming from somewhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 3:07 AM, Bob Summerwill <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Great summary, Mathijs,
>>>
>>>     I have been using first a Meizu MX4 and then a Meizu MX5 Pro
>>>     successfully here in Vancouver, Canada as my daily driver.
>>>
>>>     But in the absence of real devices, there is little point in the
>>>     project continuing.   It would just be a drain of limited funding
>>>     for Canonical, who have plenty of other important projects which
>>>     need their focus.
>>>
>>>     It is indeed a bitter pill to swallow, but unlike other open
>>>     source projects which can continue indefinitely as long as there
>>>     are people with itches to scratch, for Ubuntu Touch and other
>>>     mobile OSes there is a real co-dependency between hardware and
>>>     specific software. You aren't making software which can run on any
>>>     x86 chip, as is the case for much of the desktop world.
>>>
>>>     Without supported hardware, it is pointless.   Well, you could
>>>     support the emulators indefinitely, but that isn't producing any
>>>     real value in itself.
>>>
>>>     The same situation has already led to the demise of MeeGo, Firefox
>>>     OS and a trial-by-fire for Sailfish OS.    And the zombie state of
>>>     Windows Phone, for that matter. Blackberry OS is on death's door
>>>     as well.    You need to achieve critical mass, or you die.
>>>
>>>     Withdrawing to just tablets is another option, because it removes
>>>     the whole wireless modem stack and carriers from the picture.
>>>
>>>     On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Mathijs Veen
>>>     <mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:mathijsv33n@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Hi
>>>
>>>         (Jo-Erlend, I think you are missing the point: There aren't
>>>         any phones for new user to get. But worse: there are no phones
>>>         for active users/developers to replace theirs if broken. There
>>>         haven’t been for quite some time. That's bad because it is
>>>         really hampering community involvement, let alone growing it).
>>>
>>>         If I may boil the discussion down:
>>>
>>>         The last Ubuntu phone that went to market (in very limited
>>>         numbers and for a very short time) was in back in April.
>>>         Today, virtually no one in this thread is expecting another
>>>         official Ubuntu device any time soon.
>>>         No one knows this for sure but quite a bitter pill if true.
>>>         Question is: what do we do now?
>>>
>>>         The thread provides a few options:
>>>
>>>         1) A Canonical phone.
>>>         I would say the least likely, if not a daydream. Most of the
>>>         reasons for that have been listed above. Canonical just isn't
>>>         a hardware company.
>>>
>>>         2) Return to the Nexus line again as reference devices.
>>>         This could work to keep the project -and especially community
>>>         involvement- alive in the short term. But Canonical would have
>>>         to pick some of the current Nexus models to enable and
>>>         maintain again. Without that -ie having to muddle on with the
>>>         N4- will soon have most ppl jump ship. As per a lot of
>>>         previous comments and also my own experience: the N4 is just a
>>>         little too underpowered for convergence over the wire and will
>>>         never support wireless convergence anyway. The N4 is the only
>>>         Nexus reference device left and it is hopelessly outdated.
>>>         Also they are indeed ridiculously prone to breakage.
>>>
>>>         3) A community port
>>>         I have been following the ubports project basically since it
>>>         started and especially Marius has been doing a massive job.
>>>         However: the number of different devices has, imho, been
>>>         spread out too wide and funding has been far too thin.
>>>         The only way I believe this could possibly work is this:
>>>         Assuming we get indication that 1 and 2 are not going to
>>>         happen, we have to organise some kind of community vote where
>>>         we decide on one, or at most two, devices that are going to be
>>>         ported for ut for the coming 1.5-2 years. We focus and rally
>>>         for funding and community time and knowlegde on that phone and
>>>         stick with it. We get people to see that spreading all that
>>>         porting effort over all those devices (see
>>>         https://devices.ubports.com/#/) isnt going to get us a stable
>>>         UT phone for the short and mid term. Let us call it a
>>>         community reference device.
>>>         And I wont mind adding that I agree with some in this thread
>>>         that the Fairphone2 should be a strong candidate for this. But
>>>         that is for a separate discussion.
>>>
>>>         Some final personal thoughts.
>>>         I have tried to be as involved as my time and knowledge
>>>         allowed me since very early on in the project. I first flashed
>>>         a Galaxy Nexus (remember Maguro guys?) in October 2013. I have
>>>         been using, discussing, promoting, testing, bug reporting and
>>>         even doing a limited bit of programming for UT ever since.
>>>         Most of you all have similar stories. And I still believe in
>>>         the project. Actually, today more then ever.
>>>
>>>         But this is the first time I am thoroughly worried for the
>>>         future of the Ubuntu converged desktop/phone/tablet.
>>>
>>>         Sure, Ubuntu core and Unity8 will continue but will obviously
>>>         will take very different routes than if there were well
>>>         maintained real-world devices around that developers and early
>>>         adopters could use. For one thing: who's gonna build apps for
>>>         a system that doesn't have any actual phones?
>>>
>>>         One last reason I am worried: Because during this, and some
>>>         other mail-threads and other channel discussions lately, there
>>>         has been almost dead silence from the Ubuntu Community
>>>         Management on this.
>>>
>>>         I know they are in a difficult position in this because it is
>>>         probably impossible for them to come out and say: yeah guys,
>>>         regrettably there aren't going to be any new devices on the
>>>         market any time soon. Nevertheless, If that is the case one
>>>         would think that working with this community to bridge some
>>>         bad times with either a new official reference device or a
>>>         focused, mutual effort from Canonical and community developers
>>>         on a port could be the best course to take to keep this thing
>>>         alive.
>>>
>>>         So (still operating on the sad assumption that no new device
>>>         will appear on the market any time soon) : If none of the
>>>         above scenarios get any traction, I will -with pain in my
>>>         heart- be forced to say goodbye to Ubuntu touch as the phone I
>>>         have been using for the past 3 years. Just because there isn't
>>>         any.
>>>
>>>
>>>         Cheers
>>>
>>>         Mathijs
>>>
>>>         On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 12:45 AM, Jo-Erlend Schinstad
>>>         <joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>         <mailto:joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             Why are you even asking if Meizu of Bq has lost interest?
>>>             Do you know something I don't? The point was to produce a
>>>             small number of phones for people who really want it and
>>>             knows why. Developers and enthusiasts. This was announced
>>>             as the strategy from the very beginning, long before there
>>>             were any phones to be bought. Ubuntu for phones hasn't
>>>             been announced as ready for mainstream and it isn't. Now
>>>             we have quite a few people using Ubuntu on phones and
>>>             providing feedback and software, building a community.
>>>             That takes time. Hopefully, more developers and Ubuntu
>>>             enthusiasts want the phone when they see feedback from
>>>             existing users. Then it might be time for another small
>>>             batch of phones, expanding the community and increasing
>>>             the guerilla marketing.
>>>
>>>             One of the worst things that could happen, was if curious
>>>             people got the impression that it was ready for mainstream
>>>             and got one, only to be disappointed and then running
>>>             around on social media talking about how bad it is. People
>>>             who really understand the project, however, knows it's a
>>>             WIP and they're not so put off by its limitations. These
>>>             are good ambassadors.
>>>
>>>             There's lots of stuff that must be done. For instance, it
>>>             would make sense to switch Ubuntu for phones to Snap
>>>             rather than Click. And of course, the big USP for Ubuntu
>>>             for phones, is it's ability to function as a desktop as
>>>             well. But that doesn't really work yet. For now, Ubuntu
>>>             for phones is better off being a geeky thing.
>>>
>>>             What's the hurry?
>>>
>>>             On 8 September 2016 at 05:58, mark <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx
>>>             <mailto:j.m.holmes@xxxxxx>> wrote:
>>>
>>>                 If Meizu and bq have lost interest in the platform,
>>>                 and are really not planning to build new phones then,
>>>                 perhaps enthusiasts - of which there seem to be no
>>>                 shortage - should go down the Fairphone route, and
>>>                 crowd-source a small run of devices, designed for
>>>                 Ubuntu and produced by an OEM. I don't know what the
>>>                 run of the Meizu or bq phones amounted to, but surely
>>>                 say ~20,000 high-spec Ubuntu phones could be sold?
>>>
>>>
>>>                 m
>>>
>>>
>>>                 On 07/09/16 17:53, Mitchell Reese wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                 On Thursday, 8 September 2016 4:47:42 AM AEST, Bob
>>>>                 Summerwill <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>                 <mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>                 Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running
>>>>>>>                 Touch?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>                 I suspect that the answer to that is "no".
>>>>>
>>>>>                 If, as seems likely, both BQ and Meizu have no
>>>>>                 immediate plans to ship
>>>>>                 further Ubuntu Touch devices then that likely means
>>>>>                 that it is not
>>>>>                 economically beneficial to them to do so.   That
>>>>>                 certainly isn't an
>>>>>                 appealing market for other OEMs to join.
>>>>>      Canonical would likely be
>>>>>                 pouring their money down the drain with such a device.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Mozilla went through a very similar journey with
>>>>>                 Firefox OS, though with
>>>>>                 way more devices and way more traction. They ended
>>>>>                 up giving up on the
>>>>>                 device side, and focusing on just community ports,
>>>>>                 and on application of
>>>>>                 the OS to new (non-mobile) markets.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Mobile is a tough, tough market to compete with.
>>>>>                 Commodity Android
>>>>>                 devices are very, very compelling to the mass
>>>>>                 market. Mobile Linux is a
>>>>>                 really niche.   See the troubles Jolla have
>>>>>                 experienced too.     Even
>>>>>                 Samsung are struggling to make any kind of impact
>>>>>                 with Tizen - though that
>>>>>                 likely has more to do with their own internal
>>>>>                 politics than any lack of
>>>>>                 resourcing or ability to sell large volumes.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 My personal feeling is that mobile is now "mature",
>>>>>                 and uninteresting, like
>>>>>                 the PC market.   Who really cares if you have an
>>>>>                 ASUS or an Acer or a HP or
>>>>>                 whatever.    They have razor-thin markets and little
>>>>>                 differentiation. I
>>>>>                 think that is where mobile is getting to be, with
>>>>>                 Android as the Windows,
>>>>>                 and iOS as the Mac.    So iOS is premium and
>>>>>                 profitable, "because Apple",
>>>>>                 but Android is the de-facto standard, commodity and
>>>>>                 unprofitable. That
>>>>>                 is a really unappealing place to try to build a
>>>>>                 third platform.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Android has utterly skewed manufacturing too, to my
>>>>>                 understanding, so that
>>>>>                 if you want to get a SoC now, you are going to get
>>>>>                 Android bootloaders and
>>>>>                 drivers on it.   As blobs.   And you're just going
>>>>>                 to have to suck that up.
>>>>>                    Want X11 drivers?   No way.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Tizen is the only mobile Linux which hasn't just
>>>>>                 made the pragmatic choice
>>>>>                 of avoiding the issue by using Hybris.   For
>>>>>                 everybody else, Android has
>>>>>                 become the de-facto HAL :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>                 So yeah... I have an MX5 Pro as my daily driver and
>>>>>                 love it.   MX4 before
>>>>>                 that.    But I don't have much hope of any future
>>>>>                 Ubuntu Touch mobile
>>>>>                 devices.    I think we're likely walking dead, but
>>>>>                 just haven't stopped
>>>>>                 walking yet.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 So maybe Jolla and Tizen are the "last men standing"
>>>>>                 in this space?    For
>>>>>                 mobile profile, at least.    Tablets are a different
>>>>>                 story.   Ditto IoT and
>>>>>                 Ubuntu Snappy Core.
>>>>>
>>>>>                 On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 10:49 AM, mark
>>>>>                 <j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> <mailto:j.m.holmes@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>                 +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 The same thought had crossed my mind. Touch seems
>>>>>>                 to be reaching the point
>>>>>>                 of maturity where something of the Edge's specs
>>>>>>                 might come to fruition. It
>>>>>>                 would be a winner, imho.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Are OEMs not queuing up to ship devices running Touch?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 m
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 On 07/09/16 14:32, Art wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Question.......
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 I read all the comments, and I am now curious.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 What is to stop Canonical from releasing their own
>>>>>>                 branded phones right
>>>>>>                 now?? Just because the current 'offering' isn't
>>>>>>                 Canonical branded, Is there
>>>>>>                 anything that prevents them from selling a
>>>>>>                 Canonical branded phone later
>>>>>>                 on??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 After all, now we know that a linux based phone
>>>>>>                 actually works, what is to
>>>>>>                 stop Canonical (or even myself) from seeking out an
>>>>>>                 independent phone OEM,
>>>>>>                 buying them in bulk and rebranding them, complete
>>>>>>                 with the linux software
>>>>>>                 already installed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Great list all, I hope to see the linux phone
>>>>>>                 succeed! It's about time we
>>>>>>                 take back control of our own phones and block all
>>>>>>                 the 'features' that rob
>>>>>>                 us of our privacy!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Art
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 On 09/05/2016 10:49 AM, Krzysztof Tataradziński wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Hi
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 Did anyone from Canonical considered to 'simply'
>>>>>>                 develop phone themselves
>>>>>>                 alone, order it in factory and sell with Canonical
>>>>>>                 brand?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                 --                 Mailing list:
>>>>>> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>                 <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>>>>                 Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>                 <mailto:ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>                 Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>                 <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>>>>                 More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>                 <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>                 Hmmm. Disagree - thanfully. Otherwise, whats the
>>>>                 point? Similar arguments when Microsoft was still a
>>>>                 thing - why compete?
>>>>
>>>>                 The thing about Ubuntu is it's also a desktop system
>>>>                 - and has the potential to be much more. Will be
>>>>                 interesting to see where this goes, but I'm backing
>>>>                 Canonical.
>>>>                 M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>                 --
>>>                 Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>                 <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>                 Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>                 <mailto:ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>                 Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>                 <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>                 More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>                 <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>             --
>>>             Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>             <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>             Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>             <mailto:ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>             Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>             <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>             More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>             <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         --
>>>         Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>         <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>         Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>         <mailto:ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>         Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>         <https://launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-phone>
>>>         More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>         <https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     --     bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>
>
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>


-- 
bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx