unity-design team mailing list archive

[Natan Yellin <aantny@xxxxxxxxx>]

+1 on actually asking users. You made a few very good points.
I'd suggest that about two weeks after each new release a "Feedback" window
should appear on login with the following message:

"Ubuntu is a community project and we do our best to make sure that you
enjoy using it. If you'd like to suggest new features, report a bug, or just
tell us what we can do better, click here.

Thank you. We hope you will continue to enjoy using Ubuntu!"

Regards,
Natan

2009/6/16 Vincenzo Ciancia <ciancia@xxxxxxxxxxx>

> Martín Soto ha scritto:
>
>> 2009/6/16 Vincenzo Ciancia <ciancia@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:
>> ciancia@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>
>>    Please, let's keep the "this is something that only power user
>>    like/dislike" old argument out of this discussion. I see this is not
>>    your intention, but as we are all power users this is an effective
>>    dialectic technique to lower the value of our observations.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't want to lower the value of any observations you've made, as
>> long as these are observations about other people's behavior and not about
>> your own behavior, tastes or preferences.
>>
>
> Ok, then let's summarize: I can be defined a "power user" but I am
> seriously concerned with usability and not so much with customizability or
> feature-loadness.  I think I gained enough experience in the past to know
> why the latter two are not as much important as the former. I started 12
> years ago as an FVWM advocate who liked to take one week to write his own
> .fvwmrc that did a looney-tunes like introduction at login, and some snow
> close to xmas - when kde and gnome did not exist. Old times :)
>
> This is not offtopic: I want to tell you how I was convinced to change
> mentality. I read the famous gnome usability studies for gnome 2.0. Then I
> stopped laughing at gnome 2.0 and its feature-less-ness. This is why I would
> suggest that usability studies get published, it didn't happen this time and
> we are still not convinced.
>
>  I believe you that you and Scott are not the only guys who hate this
>> feature. Still, the problem with saying "there are 20 people in Launchpad
>> who hate it too" is that all of you conform a self-selected
>> sample.
>>
>
> The point is not if I hate or not something. The point is "how many" hate
> this. Now there are two ways to see this. Either you want to use launchpad
> features as a metric or not. In the first case you compare the number of
> duplicates, subscribers (not only comments!) with other bug reports.
> Comments come from vocal persons, but reports do not necessarily. So
> duplicates are perhaps better than comments.
>
> But you need to know about statistical properties (what is the typical
> distribution of the number of duplicates???).
>
> If you think that launchpad is biased as you explain, and I certainly AGREE
> WITH YOU (surprised??),  then you have to invent another way. In both cases,
> saying that 20 duplicates means 20 users is a very bad estimate. You'd need
> to know the average of users that suffer from a bug w.r.t. those who take
> the burden to try to report it. AFAIK we do not have ANY CLUE about that.
> Unless we start messaging a bit in the default distribution about bugs we
> will never have this metric, but  I guess that going out and talking to your
> friends can give _you_ a good idea on the impression of people about the
> popup. I did that and reactions are laughters or just "I don't care about
> updates anyway".
>
>
>>    Now let's get to the point of which evidence we have that people do not
>>    like popups in general. For update-notification, if you want evidence,
>>    again, create a poll and find a way to gather the opinion of users. I
>>    won't do that because I already have good experience.
>>
>>
>> The risk of such a poll is the same: Self selection. Obviously, people are
>> much more likely to participate if the are bothered by the feature, which
>> will immediately introduce a strong bias.
>>
>
> Then a good idea *may be* to put a general poll in the testing distribution
> that all users are strongly encouraged to take. There you can discuss the
> 4-5 big changes of every distribution (those that typically go in the
> release notes). Just an idea.
>
> Even better: we can actually implement, or mockup in a clear way, the
> possible design choices, and then in the poll ask users to test each choice
> for some time, and in the end tell us what they preferred. After all testing
> is for testing and for reporting. Why must testers jailed into bug finding?
> Can't they also be involved in the decision process? I will propose this as
> a separate thread but is ayatana the good place? Perhaps
> ubuntu-devel-discuss would be better.
>
> Although I'm a
>
>> scientist, I'm not an expert in this kind of research, so I guess I'll ask
>> my poll-designing colleagues here at work what they would do in such a
>> situation and see if they have a better answer.
>>
>
> There must be one! Please report your findings.
>
>  You are speaking about pop-ups here, but the update notifier is rather a
>> "pop-under". It remains discretely behind other windows until you select it.
>> The only way it can be intrusive, as you already pointed out, is by getting
>> in your way when you're trying to switch windows with Alt+Tab.
>>
>
> Not only, also by closing the window which is over. Then you find this and
> wonder "hey, since when this thing is here?". And you are certainly not
> guaranteed that closing e.g. evolution means not being already late to start
> serious work :) In any case, finding a window already opened the user will
> probably not want to act *right now*, and then will close it.
>
>  Achieving a less disturbing system is, of course, a valuable goal. The
>> problem here is that if your system is, for example, running an insecure
>> network stack or a file system module that may destroy all of your data,
>> you'd rather be disturbed about it.
>>
>
> Yes this was a strongly advocated point in favour of the new system. I just
> still think that the red-border white triangle with an exclamation mark in
> the notification area would be as good.
>
>
>>     > . I would expect most people to just confirm the updates and keep
>>     > going with their lives
>>
>>    Are you saying that you really NEVER experienced an upgrade that
>> creates
>>    a problem? I use my computer to work. Sometimes I just can't afford the
>>    risk that the thing breaks, even in minor aspects. E.g. when I am
>>    preparing a presentation or I am under a deadline. For this reasons the
>>    popup cannot be that frequent, it'd be annoying to people like me.
>>
>>
>> I'm starting to wonder if we are speaking about the same piece of
>> software. In my case, the pop-under remains quietly in the background. I can
>> ignore it for as long as I need. I was never forced by my system to apply
>> updates when I didn't want to. Am I missing something here?
>>
>>
> No come on. If I really am working I don't want other windows opened at
> all, I must be concentrated, so I close the window. For me it is important
> to work concentrated in a clean environment. I keep as less windows opened
> as possible because I must be able to find the right one shortly. Keeping a
> window that I don't need opened is annoying for me. Therefore I close it and
> then I forget to apply updates e.g. when I stop my work and can afford a 30
> minutes ubuntu-fix-break :) And indeed usually things go well! Otherwise I
> wouldn't be using ubuntu at all.
>
>  [...]
>>
>>    Clear evidence will be obtained only when studies will be published.
>> All
>>    of this **** is based on a study which has not been published. I do not
>>    work in usability and do not have the resources to do a test, but if
>> you
>>    find any, and you need some cooperation, I'll be glad to help designing
>>    some experiments.
>>
>>
>> This sounds great. We seem to have enough scientists here to run a small
>> University, and still don't manage to get our act together and try some
>> actual usability studies. I'm not an expert either, but we surely can learn.
>>
>>
> We could use the testing distribution as a testing environment only for
> those users who, prompted by a clear question (a popup window maybe :P) when
> they install karmic (or karmic+1, I do not think we are in time for k),
> decide to participate in usability tests, involving changing the system in
> various ways for a week or so and then report feedback in a
> number-crunchable way.
>
> But experts on statistics and usability will be of great help for this to
> be actually useful. Clear to everybody I suppose.
>
> Vincenzo
>
>
>
>
>
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