unity-design team mailing list archive

[Ian Santopietro <isantop@xxxxxxxxx>]

""" It's like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in shadow with
no overhead light."""

It isn't. Saying that is drawing an assumption that users can't focus on a
dark background. The color for each toolbar icon remains unchanged, and
since most of the are light colored, the dark toolbar accentuates the shape
of the icon. It isn't like keeping your tools in shadow, rather like keeping
your tools on a workbench painted black.

I don't think the Titlebar/menubar and the toolbar really ought to be
considered separate functions. The menu as well as the toolbar contain tools
that act on the content; in fact, many toolbar icons are there because they
are frequently accessed menu items.

In my opinion, the best way to think of it is a distinction into two parts,
rather than three. Instead of thinking about System functions, App
functions, and Content as each being separate, think only of any functions
and any content as separate.

""" Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD""";

Those don't show any wasted vertical space because the application isn't
maximised, indicating the user doesn't care how much space it takes up. The
background wastes vertical space in these examples. Furthermore, the space
is utilized at times, just not when you took the screenshot. The System
Settings bar contains a search box (Which new users will find useful, not
wasteful) and the "All Settings" button when a specific item is opened (also
useful to new users, so they know how to get back). And, the space is
available to add new functionality later without needing to revamp the
application design.

On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 15:28, nick rundy <nrundy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>  <<<I think they draw a nice distinction between the UI/interface, and the
> user content. As it stands, dark toolbars help the user focus on the content
> in the window. A dark panel helps this, but dark toolbars draw a cleaner
> separation between content, and the tools that act on that content.>>>
>
> Dark Toolbars do draw a distinction, but it is too extreme and not
> appropriate for the context, especially considering that the user has to
> interact with the toolbar to manager the content. It should not be cast in
> shadow when it is something the user needs to interact with regularly. This
> is BAD design. It's like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in
> shadow with no overhead light. Instead a middle color (e.g., gray, even a
> dark gray) should be used for the Toolbars. This provides a "nice
> distinction" both from the content AND from the titlebar & top-panel. I have
> no problem drawing a clean separation between content and the tools that act
> on that content. But the tools should NOT be colored the same as the
> TITLEBAR and the TOP-PANEL. This is the crux of the problem. It
> inappropriately merges two separate functions and shrouds the tools used to
> manage content in the dark. This is NOT good design.
>
> Point taken about the dark toolbars not being the "cause" of diminishing
> vertical space. But something has to be done about this. I abandoned
> gnome-shell because of the wasted vertical space. Unity, I thought, was to
> correct this. Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD   Look it all
> the space that is just wasted for NOTHING. What is the point of all that
> chrome at the top of the window? It is retarded development, poorly thought
> out, and not oriented towards functional & efficient desktop/laptop/netbook
> use.
>
> I really hope someone at Canonical recognizes this and fixes it before it
> becomes final. One of the primary things that drew me to Unity was the great
> use of space. This advantage is gone if the gnome 3 chrome over-use problem
> infects Unity with ubuntu 11.10!
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: isantop@xxxxxxxxx
> Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:30:53 -0600
> To: sony-qs@xxxxxxx
> CC: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbar
>
> The problem here isn't the dark toolbar wasting space, it's just making the
> space taken more apparent. The issue is the new Gnome 3 settings application
> wasting space. The new toolbar is only a color; it does not take up any
> additional space.
>
> I'm in support of the dark toolbars. <<<I think they draw a nice
> distinction between the UI/interface, and the user content. As it stands,
> dark toolbars help the user focus on the content in the window. A dark panel
> helps this, but dark toolbars draw a cleaner separation between content, and
> the tools that act on that content.>>>
>
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 05:40, Sony-qs <sony-qs@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> **
>  I'm new here, but that's a nice discussion! That's right, the dark Toolbar
> isn't space friendly. And I began to love the space I won with natty ;-)
> "nrundy" talked about a search box in the toolbar ... and yes they often
> need many space, so why don't put it in the right corner under the toolbar,
> if there's one! The box could be half transparent and hover onMouseOver!
> look@this <http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/7816/4uieph1png.jpg>
>
> Another question: I even miss fixing the Unity-Panel to accept
> keyCombinations for Alt+E (Edit) -> Alt-C (Configuration)! First step is
> working but then you can only choose with Up and Down! Work in progress?
> Greetings from Germany
>
> Am 22.07.2011 19:39, schrieb Carl Ansell:
>
>  I feel that the toolbars should only be used where it makes sense. In the
> earlier example, it did not make sense to have a thick toolbar for just a
> search box.
>
>
> Having them blend in with the top panel could be seen as a good thing when
> the window is active. Both the toolbar and the menu would be together, and
> it is worth remembering that the global-menu means that the panel is
> integrated with the running application.
>
>
>
> When the application becomes inactive, the toolbar could slide upwards and
> out of view, like the unity launcher slides to the left at present. After
> all, if the application is inactive, the toolbar is not going to be needed
> until it becomes active again, in which case the toolbar can re-appear.
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> From: nrundy@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:08:40 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars waste vertical space - what
> was the point of Unity?
>
>  The newly implemented Dark Toolbars to Oneiric have left me wondering if
> the Developers have forgotten one of the driving principles for Unity--to
> reclaim vertical space?
>
>  Look at the following comparison between Natty as it is today and Oneiric
> with Dark Toolbars. In Oneiric, not only has writing been placed underneath
> the icons (taking vertical space) but there is now a huge/thick
> vertical-space-wasting "Dark Toolbar" with only one item on it: the search
> box. COME ON! I thought the whole point of Unity was to allow more space for
> the items in the window. Does everything that uses Gnome 3.0 have to present
> enormous amounts of chrome with no purpose other than to waste vertical
> space? One of the things I love about Natty is how much vertical space has
> been reclaimed. Now it's looking like all that is going to be gone in
> Oneiric.
> http://imgur.com/a/w9pBQ
>
>  ------------------------------
> From: nrundy@xxxxxxxxxxx
> To: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:06:08 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars are a BAD idea - here's why
>
>  Dark Toolbars are a BAD idea. The Top-Panel should remain a significantly
> darker color than application toolbars.
>
>  Gnome-shell has the right idea where they made the top-panel black,
> communicating that the top-panel is NOT part of a running application.
> Google has started putting a black top-panel across its webpages,
> communicating that the top-panel is NOT part of the search results or web
> page's content. These dark top-panels provide an always-present, constant
> frame of reference that grounds the user and differentiates it from the
> project's focus (i.e., a web search, a web page's content, or a running
> application). This grounded focus is lost when Dark Toolbars are merged to
> the top-panel.
>
>  The Top-Panel is NOT part of a running application. Yet this is exactly
> what is communicated to the user when application toolbars are essentially
> merged to the Top-Panel. Keeping the top-panel separate from application
> toolbars is even more important now because of Unity's new space-saving
> design. To move an entire window for example, a user can click on the
> Titlebar. Yet dark toolbars would be the same color as the titlebar. To
> restore a maximized window, the user can double-click free space on the
> top-panel. Yet dark toolbars would present loads of free space the same
> color as the Top-Panel. There are all kinds of problems with choosing Dark
> Toolbars.
>
>  Aesthetically it is also a failure. It shrouds regularly used
> tools/buttons in darkness. The buttons and tools should be clearly visible
> and accessible by the user. Not hidden in a darkened state.
>
>  A better approach would be a gradation of darkening as one moves toward
> the top-panel. For example, the top-panel would be a dark color (like
> Ambiance). The Toolbar would be a middle color (like the present cream or
> maybe a gray), in this way bridging the gap, adding a gradation, from the
> lighted/white background where the work is done to the darker panel. The
> work area is lighted because that's where the user's focus is. The toolbar
> area is darker than the work area because it is an area of "peripheral"
> focus for the user as he/she works. Tools/buttons are referenced and
> consulted during the work process. The OS's top-panel is dark because this
> is an Always-Present constant that doesn't change, and it is not actively
> engaged when a user is working on a project, hence it is black/dark in
> color. The Toolbars do NOT share this state. The Toolbars should not be
> identified with the Top-Panel.
>
>  An Operating System's Top-Panel is NOT the same as an Application's
> Toolbar controls. They should not be treated the same visually. Yes, an
> application's Global Menu and window controls appear in the top-panel when
> maximized. But these are items that are established and utilized primarily
> when beginning or ending a work project. A Toolbar on the other hand is
> actively engaged during work. For example, when writing a paper, a user will
> look up to identify the selected font name or font size, whether a specific
> formatting option is engaged, and so forth. Looking at the Global Menu does
> not provide visual feedback like this--hence it makes sense to put it in the
> Top-Panel and have it be darkened in color like the Top-Panel. It is
> readily accessible by mouse and keyboard shortcut to serve its purpose. But
> visually, it has no purpose; hence, one of the driving forces to move it the
> top panel and get it out of the way and prevent it from taking up space. It
> does not make sense from a usability standpoint to treat an application's
> toolbar (which shows the font name, font size, etc) in a darkened state.
> There is already a LOT of dark in ubuntu. Adding more by making the toolbars
> dark is a mark against efficient usability and more of an esoteric aesthetic
> preference that has nothing to do with usability and functional design.
>
>
>  ------------------------------
> From: jorge.ortega111@xxxxxxxxx
> Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:07:25 +0100
> To: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars/Menubar Issues
>
> I think it is an interesting solution. I suggested before something a bit
> more radical: that every application when open, would create its own virtual
> workspace. To do this only for maximised  applications is also, I think, a
> good idea.
>
> On 21 July 2011 19:36, Jonathan Meek <shrouded.cloud@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I recently say the post on OMG!Ubuntu! about the possibility of dark
> toolbars being included for Oneiric and this sparked an interesting debate
> among someone I know who I asked to draft his thoughts on the issue for post
> to the Ayatana list for discussion. Here it is:
>
>
>  PROBLEM:
> The management of maximised windows in Unity is principally flawed and
> could potentially cause confusion.
> This problem arises due to the location of the toolbars of maximised
> windows, and the global menu in the Unity panel.
> Consider the screenshot at http://cdn.om. Both the toolbar and the menu
> would be together, and it is worth remembering that the global-menu means
> that the panel is integrated with the running
> application.gubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-07-19-150134_1366x768_scrot-1.png<http://cdn.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-07-19-150134_1366x768_scrot-1.png>.
> In the screenshot, you can see that because of the dark theming of the
> toolbar of the image preview window, it appears to be a part of the panel
> and the global menu.
> The screenshot demonstrates a situation in which this is undesirable. It
> may appear to the user that the toolbar for the image preview application is
> a part of the global menu for the settings application. A similar problem
> may arise in the event that a user has, for instance, two documents open in
> a word processor, and one maximised behind another unmaximised window. In
> this case, it may appear that the toolbar of the window behind operates on
> the window in front. This could cause confusion and annoyance.
> SOLUTIONS:
> There are a number of potential solutions, including theming inactive
> windows differently and displaying the title bar of full screen windows.
> In my opinion, the best solution I have observed is the solution in use on
> Mac OS X Lion. Lion creates a dynamic workspace for each maximised  window,
> in effect treating maximised (or full-screen) applications as additional
> workspaces. This means that it is impossible to end up with a situation
> where an unmaximised window is in front of a maximised window.
>
>   From Jonathan Rothwell <jonathan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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> --
> Ian Santopietro
>
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-- 
Ian Santopietro

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