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Message #06213
Re: Gnome 3 wastes Vertical Space in 11.10 & Oneiric Dark Toolbar
Yeah, the menu and toolbar are tools that act on the content. Except one is a visual tool represented with icons and pictures, the other a written (non-visual) tool. Dark toolbars surround the visual-tool in darkness, which is different than surrounding the written-tool in darkness. App menus are written words and accessible by keyboard-shortcut. These are important distinctions that apparently have not been taken into consideration or recognized.
I'm always having to maximize windows. But I wouldn't have to if a better design was implemented to not waste vertical space. It's a fallacy in logic to state that because a user doesn't have a window maximized he/she doesn't care how much space is taken up. It doesn't change the fact that giving the user more space means less scrolling, whether the window is maximized or not.
It is not helpful to think of "any functions and any content as separate." They are not. The OS is separate from open applications. I may have several applications open at once, but this is not the case with the OS. When app toolbars all start looking the same as the OS, it becomes one big dark blur of chrome and it becomes difficult to sort and differentiate applications from the OS, especially when the toolbars are different across applications. The pictures are different, the icons are different, the toolbar functions are different. This is not the case with Applications Menus nor the Status Indicators that appear in the Top-Panel. They do not differ in the same ways as toolbars do across applications. They remain basically the same. Written words with drop-down menus.
To share your analogy, the black workbench you speak of is the Operating System. The toolbars are trays that hold the tools. When all the trays are made black, you lose the ability to differentiate the trays from the workbench. Yet this is exactly what users need to do at times when using applications--be able to see the tray from the workbench.
From: isantop@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 15:45:06 -0600
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Gnome 3 wastes Vertical Space in 11.10 & Oneiric Dark Toolbar
To: nrundy@xxxxxxxxxxx
CC: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
""" It's like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in shadow with no overhead light."""
It isn't. Saying that is drawing an assumption that users can't focus on a dark background. The color for each toolbar icon remains unchanged, and since most of the are light colored, the dark toolbar accentuates the shape of the icon. It isn't like keeping your tools in shadow, rather like keeping your tools on a workbench painted black.
I don't think the Titlebar/menubar and the toolbar really ought to be considered separate functions. The menu as well as the toolbar contain tools that act on the content; in fact, many toolbar icons are there because they are frequently accessed menu items.
In my opinion, the best way to think of it is a distinction into two parts, rather than three. Instead of thinking about System functions, App functions, and Content as each being separate, think only of any functions and any content as separate.
""" Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD""";
Those don't show any wasted vertical space because the application isn't maximised, indicating the user doesn't care how much space it takes up. The background wastes vertical space in these examples. Furthermore, the space is utilized at times, just not when you took the screenshot. The System Settings bar contains a search box (Which new users will find useful, not wasteful) and the "All Settings" button when a specific item is opened (also useful to new users, so they know how to get back). And, the space is available to add new functionality later without needing to revamp the application design.
On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 15:28, nick rundy <nrundy@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<<<I think they draw a nice distinction between the UI/interface, and the user content. As it stands, dark toolbars help the user focus on the content in the window. A dark panel helps this, but dark toolbars draw a cleaner separation between content, and the tools that act on that content.>>>
Dark Toolbars do draw a distinction, but it is too extreme and not appropriate for the context, especially considering that the user has to interact with the toolbar to manager the content. It should not be cast in shadow when it is something the user needs to interact with regularly. This is BAD design. It's like keeping your tools on a workbench that is cast in shadow with no overhead light. Instead a middle color (e.g., gray, even a dark gray) should be used for the Toolbars. This provides a "nice distinction" both from the content AND from the titlebar & top-panel. I have no problem drawing a clean separation between content and the tools that act on that content. But the tools should NOT be colored the same as the TITLEBAR and the TOP-PANEL. This is the crux of the problem. It inappropriately merges two separate functions and shrouds the tools used to manage content in the dark. This is NOT good design.
Point taken about the dark toolbars not being the "cause" of diminishing vertical space. But something has to be done about this. I abandoned gnome-shell because of the wasted vertical space. Unity, I thought, was to correct this. Look at these photos: http://imgur.com/a/fSPJD Look it all the space that is just wasted for NOTHING. What is the point of all that chrome at the top of the window? It is retarded development, poorly thought out, and not oriented towards functional & efficient desktop/laptop/netbook use.
I really hope someone at Canonical recognizes this and fixes it before it becomes final. One of the primary things that drew me to Unity was the great use of space. This advantage is gone if the gnome 3 chrome over-use problem infects Unity with ubuntu 11.10!
From: isantop@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 07:30:53 -0600
To: sony-qs@xxxxxxx
CC: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbar
The problem here isn't the dark toolbar wasting space, it's just making the space taken more apparent. The issue is the new Gnome 3 settings application wasting space. The new toolbar is only a color; it does not take up any additional space.
I'm in support of the dark toolbars. <<<I think they draw a nice distinction between the UI/interface, and the user content. As it stands, dark toolbars help the user focus on the content in the window. A dark panel helps this, but dark toolbars draw a cleaner separation between content, and the tools that act on that content.>>>
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 05:40, Sony-qs <sony-qs@xxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm new here, but that's a nice discussion! That's right, the dark
Toolbar isn't space friendly. And I began to love the space I won
with natty ;-) "nrundy" talked about a search box in the toolbar ...
and yes they often need many space, so why don't put it in the right
corner under the toolbar, if there's one! The box could be half
transparent and hover onMouseOver! look@this
Another question: I even miss fixing the Unity-Panel to accept
keyCombinations for Alt+E (Edit) -> Alt-C (Configuration)! First
step is working but then you can only choose with Up and Down! Work
in progress?
Greetings from Germany
Am 22.07.2011 19:39, schrieb Carl Ansell:
I feel that the toolbars should only be used where
it makes sense. In the earlier example, it did not make sense to
have a thick toolbar for just a search box.
Having them blend in with the top panel could be seen as a good
thing when the window is active. Both the toolbar and the menu
would be together, and it is worth remembering that the
global-menu means that the panel is integrated with the running
application.
When the application becomes inactive, the toolbar could slide
upwards and out of view, like the unity launcher slides to the
left at present. After all, if the application is inactive, the
toolbar is not going to be needed until it becomes active again,
in which case the toolbar can re-appear.
From: nrundy@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 13:08:40 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars waste vertical
space - what was the point of Unity?
The newly implemented Dark Toolbars to Oneiric
have left me wondering if the Developers have forgotten
one of the driving principles for Unity--to reclaim
vertical space?
Look at the following comparison between Natty
as it is today and Oneiric with Dark Toolbars. In
Oneiric, not only has writing been placed underneath the
icons (taking vertical space) but there is now a
huge/thick vertical-space-wasting "Dark Toolbar" with
only one item on it: the search box. COME ON! I thought
the whole point of Unity was to allow more space for the
items in the window. Does everything that uses Gnome 3.0
have to present enormous amounts of chrome with no
purpose other than to waste vertical space? One of the
things I love about Natty is how much vertical space has
been reclaimed. Now it's looking like all that is going
to be gone in Oneiric.
http://imgur.com/a/w9pBQ
From: nrundy@xxxxxxxxxxx
To: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:06:08 -0400
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark Toolbars are a BAD
idea - here's why
Dark Toolbars are a BAD idea.
The Top-Panel should remain a significantly darker
color than application toolbars.
Gnome-shell has the right idea where they
made the top-panel black, communicating that the
top-panel is NOT part of a running application.
Google has started putting a black top-panel across
its webpages, communicating that the top-panel is
NOT part of the search results or web page's
content. These dark top-panels provide an
always-present, constant frame of reference that
grounds the user and differentiates it from the
project's focus (i.e., a web search, a web page's
content, or a running application). This grounded
focus is lost when Dark Toolbars are merged to the
top-panel.
The
Top-Panel is NOT part of a running application. Yet
this is exactly what is communicated to the user
when application toolbars are essentially merged to
the Top-Panel. Keeping the top-panel separate from
application toolbars is even more important now
because of Unity's new space-saving design. To move
an entire window for example, a user can click on
the Titlebar. Yet dark toolbars would be the same
color as the titlebar. To restore a maximized
window, the user can double-click free space on the
top-panel. Yet dark toolbars would present loads of
free space the same color as the Top-Panel. There
are all kinds of problems with choosing Dark
Toolbars.
Aesthetically
it is also a failure. It shrouds regularly used
tools/buttons in darkness. The buttons and tools
should be clearly visible and accessible by the
user. Not hidden in a darkened state.
A
better approach would be a gradation of darkening as
one moves toward the top-panel. For example, the
top-panel would be a dark color (like Ambiance). The
Toolbar would be a middle color (like the present
cream or maybe a gray), in this way bridging the
gap, adding a gradation, from the lighted/white
background where the work is done to the darker
panel. The work area is lighted because that's where
the user's focus is. The toolbar area is darker than
the work area because it is an area of "peripheral"
focus for the user as he/she works. Tools/buttons
are referenced and consulted during the work
process. The OS's top-panel is dark because this is
an Always-Present constant that doesn't change, and
it is not actively engaged when a user is working on
a project, hence it is black/dark in color. The
Toolbars do NOT share this state. The Toolbars
should not be identified with the Top-Panel.
An Operating System's Top-Panel is NOT
the same as an Application's Toolbar controls.
They should not be treated the same visually. Yes,
an application's Global Menu and window controls
appear in the top-panel when maximized. But these
are items that are established and utilized
primarily when beginning or ending a work project.
A Toolbar on the other hand is actively engaged
during work. For example, when writing a paper, a
user will look up to identify the selected font
name or font size, whether a specific formatting
option is engaged, and so forth. Looking at the
Global Menu does not provide visual feedback like
this--hence it makes sense to put it in the
Top-Panel and have it be darkened in color like
the Top-Panel. It is readily accessible by mouse
and keyboard shortcut to serve its purpose. But
visually, it has no purpose; hence, one of the
driving forces to move it the top panel and get it
out of the way and prevent it from taking up
space. It does not make sense from a usability standpoint
to treat an application's toolbar (which shows the
font name, font size, etc) in a darkened state.
There is already a LOT of dark in ubuntu. Adding
more by making the toolbars dark is a mark against
efficient usability and more of an esoteric
aesthetic preference that has nothing to do with
usability and functional design.
From: jorge.ortega111@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 22:07:25 +0100
To: ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Oneiric Dark
Toolbars/Menubar Issues
I think it is an interesting solution. I suggested
before something a bit more radical: that every
application when open, would create its own
virtual workspace. To do this only for maximised
applications is also, I think, a good idea.
On 21 July 2011 19:36,
Jonathan Meek <shrouded.cloud@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
I recently say the
post on OMG!Ubuntu! about the possibility of
dark toolbars being included for Oneiric and
this sparked an interesting debate among
someone I know who I asked to draft his
thoughts on the issue for post to the
Ayatana list for discussion. Here it is:
PROBLEM:
The management of maximised windows in
Unity is principally flawed and could
potentially cause confusion.
This problem arises due to the
location of the toolbars of maximised
windows, and the global menu in the
Unity panel.
Consider the screenshot at http://cdn.om. Both
the toolbar and the menu would be
together, and it is worth
remembering that the global-menu
means that the panel is integrated
with the running
application.gubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-07-19-150134_1366x768_scrot-1.png.
In the screenshot, you can see that
because of the dark theming of the
toolbar of the image preview window,
it appears to be a part of the panel
and the global menu.
The screenshot demonstrates a
situation in which this is
undesirable. It may appear to the user
that the toolbar for the image preview
application is a part of the global
menu for the settings application. A
similar problem may arise in the event
that a user has, for instance, two
documents open in a word processor,
and one maximised behind another
unmaximised window. In this case, it
may appear that the toolbar of the
window behind operates on the window
in front. This could cause confusion
and annoyance.
SOLUTIONS:
There are a number of potential
solutions, including theming inactive
windows differently and displaying the
title bar of full screen windows.
In my opinion, the best solution I
have observed is the solution in use
on Mac OS X Lion. Lion creates a
dynamic workspace for each maximised
window, in effect treating maximised
(or full-screen) applications as
additional workspaces. This means that
it is impossible to end up with a
situation where an unmaximised window
is in front of a maximised window.
From Jonathan
Rothwell
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Ian Santopietro
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
"Eala Earendel enlga beorohtast
Ofer middangeard monnum sended"
Pa gur yv y porthaur?
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References
