unity-design team mailing list archive

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad <joerlend.schinstad@xxxxxxxxx>]

Den 28. aug. 2011 02:41, skrev huff:
> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:44:44 +0200 Jo-Erlend Schinstad wrote:
> > Yes, you want them. But why? Is there any other reason
> > than liking to see orange circles with X-es in them?
> Like looking at circles?!?  Seriously, dude.
>
> The reason I like them is because I look at them before I move the
> mouse and aim the mouse at the one I want to click.
That's what I'm trying to understand. I have been using a mouse
since I was about nine, and that means 22 years of experience.
I have never been able to hit those buttons directly without
slowing down from a distance greater than a few centimeters.
And now that it has become so very much easier to hit those
buttons... Why are you complaining now? It seems very odd that
after all these years of having those buttons placed in difficult
positions, that people would want to complain once they're next
to impossible to miss. Except if you're a real ninja on the mouse,
with such a great control that you can write with it like a pen.
Most other users would need to take a split second to hit those
buttons in any case.

With all these complaints, I've given it a real go. I tested on my
desktop with a 24" screen running 1920x1080 and on my laptop
with a 13" screen on 1360x768. On the desktop I use a mouse,
and on the laptop I've tested with both the mouse and the
touchpad. I used the same mouse on the desktop and laptop.

I did 25 tries in each combination, to a total of 75 tries. I did not
program any software to time it, but I did enable the seconds
on the panel clock. From all positions on the desktop, I was able
to hit the close button in less than two seconds. I had no problems
hitting the button while watching the clock on the opposite side
of the screen. On the laptop using the mouse, I got close to
identical results that I got from the desktop. Using the touchpad
was a little slower, but I never used more than three seconds.
Of the 75 tries, I hit on first attempt 63 times.

Is that really such a horrible result? I also tried with 11.04 on
the desktop. I wasn't able to clock it as precisely, because it
wasn't possible to hit the close button while watching the clock,
but it did take longer. Around four seconds in average, I'd say.
I did hit the button all times, though, but that's not surprising
since I was looking at it.

I also did a test with my eyes closed, just to see how much it
affected me not being able to see the buttons as all. I was
able to hit the close button 8 of 10 times when I had my eyes
closed. I'd say the speed was about the same.

It's not a scientific test, of course, but it makes me very
certain in my own views. None of the people I've tested it
on, which is about fifteen to twenty people -- also not meant
as a scientific test -- had any complains.

But on this list... The complaints are many. Hmm. What a
coincidence. Just as expected.
> > No, this has nothing at all to do with muscle memory. Not
> > a thing. You're aiming for the corner of the screen. You can
> > do that with your eyes closed, so whether the button is
> > red, blue or invisible, is completely irrelevant. I don't at
> > all understand what you mean by a two step process.
> Sure, I can hit the corner of the screen with my eyes closed.  But
> I most certainly cannot hit the maximize button with my eyes
> closed, and not the x button, either.
How are you able to miss the close-button? It's just two pixels?

> Two steps:  Move to the corner and wait for the buttons to appear.
> then move to the button I want to click.
Wait for the buttons? Then you must have super-human eyes
and brain, or an extremely very slow computer.  I cannot tell
how quickly it happens, because I don't have super-human
eyes. Does it matter if you "wait" 5 or 30ms? That's obviously
not a valid argument.

> > > Clearly, I am not the only one that wants these buttons or I
> > > wouldn't have stumbled on the argument for them.
> > Yes, but it seems that the wish is completely irrational.
> > It shouldn't be imposed on millions of users.
> It seems irrational to you because you cannot conceive of why
> someone would like it.  But people do.
Who? I am obviously not talking about existing users, because
they are obviously not testable. You can test the efficiency,
but asking for taste from people who are accustomed to
something, is completely pointless.

> > > I am really confused by how often people just can't understand
> > > that people use computers in various ways.
> > That's the point. This doesn't affect use in any way.
> You can say that as often and in as many ways as you like, but if
> people like/dislike it, it does affect use!

Really? Is that your scientific point of view, that if it feels good,
then it is better? Successrates and time spent doesn't matter?

Well. If it's such  great concern, then there's always other
shells or even operating systems. But I haven't been able to
find any real, unbiased, person who has any complaints about it.
I haven't found any arguments here either, except for yours;
"I don't like it."

Yes, but from what you're saying I don't think you've tested
it yourself, much less tested it on others. For instance, we've
never before had the buttons in the corner. Not in the history
of Ubuntu. In 11.04, when you was closing a window, the
launcher would appear at the same time as the menus did.
You did not object to that? And when you talk about having
to wait a few milliseconds for the buttons to appear, it
becomes fairly obvious that you haven't actually tested it.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad