kicad-developers team mailing list archive

[Martijn Kuipers <martijn.kuipers@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Dick,

This is not my fight. I almost was typing in a reply, but I think it is in KiCads' best interest to not begin a quarrel.
I just wanted to note a few things:
- I agree, we disagree on almost all points and as my comments did not convince you otherwise, neither did yours.
- I agree when you are right saying you are a major shareholder and as I told you I do appreciate the efforts put into KiCad by you and everyone else.

So it seems we can reach some form of agreement. A dutch saying goes like this: "Hoge bomen vangen veel wind". Since I doubt google will give an accurate translating, and I am unaware (at least at the moment) of the English equivalent, you can roughly translate this to: "Those who step forward and put in a lot of effort are most likely to receive criticism".  It does not state whether that is fair or not.

Sincerely yours,
Martijn


On Sep 28, 2011, at 1:08 AM, Dick Hollenbeck wrote:

> On 09/27/2011 03:33 AM, Martijn Kuipers wrote:
>> On Sep 27, 2011, at 12:33 AM, Brian Sidebotham wrote:
>> 
>>> On 27 September 2011 00:22, Dick Hollenbeck <dick@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> On 09/26/2011 05:04 PM, Fred Cooke wrote:
>>>>> Yes it absolutely is constructive criticism, it points out weaknesses, explains why they
>>>>> are weaknesses, and explains how to do it better. Sounds EXACTLY like constructive
>>>>> criticism to me, Dick. Your name could not be more fitting.
>> I agree the last sentence should not be posted in public space. 
>> 
>> I do not agree that it is not constructive criticism, i.e., I think it is constructive. Let's not forget the original poster to whom Dick replied might not be a native English speaker.
>> 
>>>> I have de-activated Fred Cooke from this mailing list.
>>>> 
>> Judge, Jury and Executioner. This is not very democratic.  
> 
> Wrong metaphor.  Think owner, and major shareholder.  More below.  If you like, "bouncer
> at a shareholder's meeting".
> 
> 
>> In open source (s)he-who-does-the-work-decides is fine with me with respect to general directions, coding decisions, vcs, etc, but this is not a code-problem.
> 
>>> I'm very glad! His posts have only ever been derogatory and of no
>>> substance. Sorry you've had to deal with it.
>> This I also don't agree with. Maybe he has not done as much as you (Brian), Dick or Jean-Pierre, he has been trying to be helpful. 
> 
> 
> Martijn,
> 
> 
> Since you are a shareholder, I will try and respect your opinion, even as I disagree with
> most all of it.
> 
> First, the least controversial:  what is constructive criticism? 
> 
> 1) It does not end with "I do not like it".
> 2) It respects the feelings of the performer.
> 3) It uses language like "if you were to do this ..., then here would be the benefit for
> all of us..."
> 
> 
> I do agree this is more difficult in a foreign language.
> 
> 
> 
> Fred has been trying to gain respect through the wrong means, not through contributions
> and by being respectful.  I grepped through the commit logs and don't see his name once.
> 
> On this list, and in general, *being respectful* earns you good will.  Good will then
> eventually earns you respect. 
> 
> Around here we don't kick the *hens* that lay the golden eggs.  All are not equal here. 
> 
> When decency and respect break down, as has apparently happened here, we would have to
> fall back to understanding of ownership.  Think of this mailing list as a shareholder's
> meeting, one in which they let customer's attend so long as they behave.
> 
> The KiCad project has owners, and users. Some are owners.  Some own more than others. 
> Ownership can be measured by previous contributions.  Contributions come in many forms:
> ideas, team building, leadership, coding, website administration, documenting, sifting
> through bug reports, translating, fixing bugs, building 3-d models, editing wikis, etc.
> etc. etc.
> 
> 
> Here is my most important point:
> those that have succeeded here have all been respectful at the start, this includes
> Jean-Pierre, who has been enormously respectful of the other hens.  Wayne, who has been
> enormously respectful of the other hens.
> 
> Brian, who has been enormously respectful of the hens.  Name after name it's the same
> way.  And I cherish every one of them, too many of which will go unnamed just here.  Sorry
> Jerry, sorry sorry sorry, as I make my point without listing everyone.
> 
> 
> Fabrizio has been enormously respectful of the hens *from the start* and continues to be
> so, and is now a hen himself.
> 
> 
> The respect of the hens is a self identifying personality trait, that predisposes a person
> to succeed here, or to fail if you do not have it.  This does not mean that a person has
> to agree with everything.  I am respecting you now, even as I explain my disagreement.
> 
> 
> When I tried to protect a hen, Fabrizio, I got *personally* attacked in a malicious,
> non-ambiguous, destructive way.  This is not a misunderstanding.   I said that Fred had
> already also attacked me through my facebook account.  Putting this to a vote is
> non-sensical.   Democracy is not even remotely pertinent here.  Even in law, regardless of
> the licensing model used, the project has owners.  It is not a public domain asset.
> 
> 
> I am quite shocked that you would even think that I should have to endure potential future
> personal attacks from this person, after having invested over a quarter million dollars of
> my personal funds into KiCad?  I am also a hen.  I have already earned my good will, and I
> did it by being respectful of the hens and contributing.
> 
> 
> You have no idea whether I contacted the other major shareholders before taking this
> action.  Again, likening this mailing list and this project to a democracy is foolish.  It
> is not a democracy.  You yourself are a shareholder. 
> 
> Everyone can have a say, even non-owners.  By being respectful, things simply work and we
> do not have to focus on ownership.  Amazingly, owners tend to be respectful and listen. 
> (Remember, I am saying they only came to be significant owners because they were
> respectful in the first place.  Interesting phenomenon that.)
> 
> 
> Your opinion is noted.  It seems we disagree.  Fred will not be part of this team so long
> as I am, and I have too much invested to leave at this time.  And trust me when I tell you
> that I did not have to ask the other major shareholders (hens) because I already knew they
> respected me, had already built up that good will, just like I respect them.
> 
> The only awkward part here is that I was the victim.  However, I would not hesitate to do
> the same thing for any other hen should it ever become necessary.
> 
> We clearly do not need to be attacking the hens that lay the golden eggs, as that will
> mean less eggs.
> 
> Dick
> 
>