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Message #35881
Re: More default fields in schematic
>From a Digi-Key KiCad library standpoint, as we're still in beta, I would
gladly change the fields to whatever would be decided. Uniformity for
plugins use would definitely be an advantage.
-Ben
On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:38 AM kristoffer ödmark <
kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Thanks! This is exactly what i was going for, non-intrusive oppurtunity
> for uniformity!
>
> I tested the bom2csv plugin, It did not include the empty fields.
>
> I also tested the bom_csv_sorted_by_ref, it did not include the empty
> values, but it included some values I had not specified, such as
> Manufacturer and Vendor even if they were not provided in the
> schematic.
>
> - Kristoffer
>
> On Tue, 2018-05-22 at 11:05 +0100, Jeff Young wrote:
> > I think I like this new patch. It provides the /opportunity/ for
> > uniformity, without getting in the way of those who want to go their
> > own way.
> >
> > Do the BOM generators automatically output all default fields or only
> > those with values?
> >
> > > On 22 May 2018, at 09:22, kristoffer ödmark <kristofferodmark90@gma
> > > il.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Please disregard my previous mail, it got mangled badly somehow, it
> > > did
> > > not look like that in my editor at least.
> > >
> > > On Mon, 2018-05-21 at 18:22 -0400, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> > > > Eeschema already supports creating default optional fields in the
> > > > configuration settings dialog. Used correctly, these will give
> > > > you
> > > > the
> > > > same optional field names for every project without having to add
> > > > them
> > > > by hand to each symbol and possibly typing in different field
> > > > names
> > > > by
> > > > accident.
> > >
> > > Different users will still type in different field names for the
> > > same
> > > things though. What you describe works as long as there is only one
> > > person in the entire projects lifetime, using only one computer.
> > >
> > > > The proposed patch would intermingle the default fields
> > > > with
> > > > existing schematic symbol fields which would break existing BOMs
> > > > which I
> > > > don't think users will appreciate.
> > >
> > > The proposed patch will only change default settings, existing
> > > users
> > > with a config already in place will not be affected. I realised
> > > that
> > > the fields now accept empty values as well, so existing boms on new
> > > installations will not be affected either. I updated the patch, so
> > > it
> > > will not affect anyone that doesnt use the fields.
> > >
> > > > [...] As I've stated before, I can set 10
> > > > different designers down and I will get 10 different sets of
> > > > default
> > > > field names. This really seems like me to be a configuration
> > > > issue.
> > >
> > > This is the problems I want to address, because those 10 designers
> > > will
> > > by experience also spell the same field in 10 different ways.
> > > Making
> > > their fields incompatable. MPN, MFPN, #mfg, ManufPart, etc etc. Let
> > > those 10 designers remove the fields they do not want instead.
> > >
> > > > The only possible solution that I would accept is to move the
> > > > default
> > > > field definitions from the eeschema configuration file into the
> > > > default
> > > > kicad project file. This way existing projects would not be
> > > > polluted
> > > > with the proposed default fields and users could define their own
> > > > default fields in a custom project file.
> > >
> > > Default fields does not pollute if they are empty, they just give a
> > > hint of what data could be put into the schematic, same as with the
> > > datasheet field, which is not often used. Funny how noone ever
> > > complains about that one.
> > >
> > > > [...]
> > > > A more flexible solution would be to add a "File->New from Custom
> > > > Template" command to KiCad to allow the user to select any custom
> > > > project file. This would allow for multiple custom project files
> > > > instead of forcing the user to use only a single default project
> > > > file.
> > >
> > > As long as the "File->New Project" would include the additional
> > > fields
> > > and then people can use "New from Custom Template" means they can
> > > use a
> > > template that is empty. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose. I am
> > > proposing a slightly different default configuration, not any
> > > change in
> > > how people will use the software.
> > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Wayne
> > > >
> > > > On 05/20/2018 06:27 PM, Andrey Kuznetsov wrote:
> > > > > I agree, I had the same issue when I was doing my board, I
> > > > > needed a
> > > > > field for all components, and I had to manually add it for
> > > > > every
> > > > > item,
> > > > > there was no way to add this field to all components at the
> > > > > same
> > > > > time or
> > > > > to have it add by default from the addition of a new component
> > > > > to
> > > > > the sheet.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which reminds me, Cadence Designer has tools to manipulate
> > > > > fields
> > > > > on a
> > > > > large scale, whether to add, delete, show, hide, etc, this is
> > > > > something
> > > > > that would be nice to have in KiCAD, either that or a table of
> > > > > all
> > > > > components for the sheet or schematic and columns for each
> > > > > field,
> > > > > with
> > > > > ability to show/hide each cell individually.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the ultimate goal is to make the Symbol Table more
> > > > > useful,
> > > > > but
> > > > > that'll take to long for v5 so if Kristoffer's patch allows an
> > > > > easy
> > > > > way
> > > > > to add fields to all components or similar, I'd say do it
> > > > > because
> > > > > people
> > > > > will be pissed and waste their time doing it for every
> > > > > component in
> > > > > their schematic.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:01 PM, kristoffer Ödmark
> > > > > <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kristofferodmark90@gmail.
> > > > > com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I obvviously disagree, the correct solution would be to have
> > > > > both.
> > > > > This does not hinder that, its not even the same problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem is for everyone who want for example the
> > > > > Manufacturer
> > > > > Part Number will have to define a fieldname, which every
> > > > > time
> > > > > results in them abbreviating it to something different.
> > > > > Hence
> > > > > nobody
> > > > > can work with Manufacturer Part Numbers.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is something similar, Imagine all of the colours in
> > > > > Kicad
> > > > > for
> > > > > all of the layers where white by default. Have fun defining
> > > > > all
> > > > > the
> > > > > colours yourself.
> > > > > Maybe you want to define them yourself, nobody is stopping
> > > > > you
> > > > > now
> > > > > either, just get cracking.
> > > > >
> > > > > How easy would it be for you to look at the board someone
> > > > > else
> > > > > made
> > > > > later and understand what is what? Maybe for some that is a
> > > > > better
> > > > > solution, but for me that
> > > > > would be an extreme example of bad default values.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is how the default fields are now, they are white, or
> > > > > more
> > > > > like
> > > > > see-throught, which makes life harder for anyone that
> > > > > wants to contribute or create tools that interact with
> > > > > kicad,
> > > > > and as
> > > > > I previously said, this is only a default, you are still
> > > > > equally able to add/remove or change the fields how you want
> > > > > to.
> > > > > But, tools like kibom or various other web-based tools can
> > > > > much
> > > > > easier integrate to it, or at least support a default value
> > > > > as
> > > > > well.
> > > > > So for the majority of users, who doesnt change defaults,
> > > > > the tool would just work.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will reiterate, I do not care what they are named, I want
> > > > > a
> > > > > default field where I can put my manufacturer part number,
> > > > > amongs
> > > > > others.
> > > > > The specific abbreviation or name does not matter, If i
> > > > > care, I
> > > > > can
> > > > > manually add/remove my own fields *JUST AS I DO NOW*, but
> > > > > for
> > > > > the people
> > > > > who use it, it will be easier across projects, for the
> > > > > people
> > > > > that
> > > > > dont, It will not matter.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sane defaults matter. A lot actually.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Kristoffer
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2018-05-20 23:40, José Ignacio wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont like this, the right solution would be to allow
> > > > > for
> > > > > importing a default config into kicad for things like
> > > > > that,
> > > > > as
> > > > > different groups will have different policies.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Kristoffer Ödmark
> > > > > <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > > <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > > <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The patch should only affect first startup, changes
> > > > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > fields
> > > > > will be saved
> > > > >
> > > > > On May 20, 2018 22:18, "Seth Hillbrand"
> > > > > <seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:seth.hillbrand@gmail.c
> > > > > om>
> > > > > <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > > <mailto:seth.hillbrand@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Kristoffer-
> > > > >
> > > > > This feels like a management issue rather than a
> > > > > tool
> > > > > issue.
> > > > > If the user doesn't want any extra fields, how
> > > > > would your
> > > > > patch allow that?
> > > > >
> > > > > -S
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Am So., 20. Mai 2018 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb
> > > > > kristoffer Ödmark
> > > > > <kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > > <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx
> > > > > <mailto:kristofferodmark90@xxxxxxxxx>>>:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello!
> > > > >
> > > > > I will open this can of worms again, I feel
> > > > > that I have
> > > > > to. So from what
> > > > > I gather we have proffessionals as the main
> > > > > aim
> > > > > in
> > > > > Kicad.
> > > > > The reason I will open this issue again is
> > > > > that
> > > > > I
> > > > > feel we
> > > > > have a
> > > > > collaboration issue, maybe not a mayor one.
> > > > > But
> > > > > one
> > > > > nonetheless.
> > > > >
> > > > > We really need more default fields for our
> > > > > schematic
> > > > > symbols. Im not
> > > > > proposing required fields, I am *ONLY*
> > > > > proposing that
> > > > > there should be default fields added into
> > > > > the
> > > > > default
> > > > > fields settings
> > > > > tab. I am not proposing they need to be
> > > > > filled
> > > > > in the
> > > > > libraries, nor that people need to use them.
> > > > > only that
> > > > > they need to
> > > > > exist with a fresh install of kicad so that
> > > > > easy
> > > > > problems
> > > > > such as theese do not happen:
> > > > >
> > > > > - Collaborators working on the same
> > > > > project
> > > > > will not
> > > > > create
> > > > > duplicate fields in libs/projects describing
> > > > > the same
> > > > > thing by mistake
> > > > > - Projects that aim to interact or add
> > > > > to
> > > > > Kicad can
> > > > > assume that the
> > > > > Fields will exist, and will know what
> > > > > name/tag
> > > > > to
> > > > > look for
> > > > > (bom exporters, price checkers,
> > > > > MacroFab, etc)
> > > > > - Open source projects will be easier
> > > > > to
> > > > > collaborate,
> > > > > read and order
> > > > >
> > > > > The reason I think it is better to have the
> > > > > fields by
> > > > > default than the
> > > > > current solution to add them is that the
> > > > > majority
> > > > > will use
> > > > > what exists, and tools can support it from
> > > > > the
> > > > > very
> > > > > beginning, people
> > > > > with inhouse tools seems to dislike this,
> > > > > since
> > > > > they
> > > > > map their
> > > > > parts with an inhouse number - and then
> > > > > handle
> > > > > the
> > > > > information about the
> > > > > part there. From what I gather, this is not
> > > > > the
> > > > > majority, and
> > > > > these persons still modify the default
> > > > > fields
> > > > > settings.
> > > > >
> > > > > I spent maybe 30-40 mins checking the "made
> > > > > with kicad"
> > > > > projects, I
> > > > > found that the most common addition to libs
> > > > > and
> > > > > schematics
> > > > > are:
> > > > > - Manufacturers part number, these were
> > > > > named
> > > > > widely
> > > > > different in
> > > > > projects, (BOM, MP, MPN, #mfg, or different
> > > > > syntaxes in
> > > > > the Value field )
> > > > > I even saw a mix of these in the
> > > > > same
> > > > > project
> > > > > once, along with
> > > > > some people having the vendor id only.
> > > > > - Manufacturer ( found some different
> > > > > languages
> > > > > though )
> > > > >
> > > > > more uncommon things was, Tolerance( 10%,
> > > > > 20pps),
> > > > > Ratings
> > > > > ( 1/4W, 85C,
> > > > > 16V ), Vendor information and different
> > > > > Descriptions. They
> > > > > were named
> > > > > and abbreviated
> > > > > very differently accross projects.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I would like to see is these additional
> > > > > fields by
> > > > > default, but
> > > > > hidden from the schematic unless changed by
> > > > > user.
> > > > > Tolerance ( used for setting tolerances
> > > > > of
> > > > > resistors,
> > > > > capacitors,
> > > > > oscillators, etc )
> > > > > MaxRating ( field were one can specify
> > > > > max
> > > > > Voltage,
> > > > > Ampere,
> > > > > Frequency, or whatever the component needs )
> > > > > Manufacturer ( For inhouse numbers,
> > > > > they
> > > > > could
> > > > > either
> > > > > just remove
> > > > > it, or use the company/group name )
> > > > > MPN ( Maybe PartNumber could be used
> > > > > here,
> > > > > and
> > > > > people
> > > > > who use
> > > > > inhouse numbers use it aswell, I dont really
> > > > > care
> > > > > what its
> > > > > called, as
> > > > > long as its called something )
> > > > > Vendor
> > > > > Notes
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be all up for extra
> > > > > additions/removals,
> > > > > but I
> > > > > would prefer if
> > > > > the naming is not discussed, but rather just
> > > > > decided/agreed upon by
> > > > > someone in the lead team.
> > > > > The very least I think should be added in
> > > > > case
> > > > > the
> > > > > previous is to much are:
> > > > > Tolerance
> > > > > Manufacturer
> > > > > MPN
> > > > >
> > > > > I attach a patch for the minimal set, tested
> > > > > on
> > > > > linux by
> > > > > removing the
> > > > > .config/kicad/eeschema file.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Kristoffer
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ps
> > > > > Some github files i reviewed, not all:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob/
> > > > > mas
> > > > > ter/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
> > > > > <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob
> > > > > /ma
> > > > > ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob
> > > > > /ma
> > > > > ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib
> > > > > <https://github.com/AnaviTechnology/anavi-gardening/blob
> > > > > /ma
> > > > > ster/MCP3002-I_SN.lib>>
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten%
> > > > > 20L
> > > > > ED%20Device/Blixten.sch
> > > > > <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten
> > > > > %20
> > > > > LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten
> > > > > %20
> > > > > LED%20Device/Blixten.sch
> > > > > <https://github.com/jonpe960/blixten/blob/master/Blixten
> > > > > %20
> > > > > LED%20Device/Blixten.sch>>
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pcb
> > > > > %20
> > > > > design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
> > > > > <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pc
> > > > > b%2
> > > > > 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pc
> > > > > b%2
> > > > > 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib
> > > > > <https://github.com/paltatech/half-bridge/blob/master/pc
> > > > > b%2
> > > > > 0design/IGBT_board-cache.lib>>
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/cap
> > > > > _sm
> > > > > d.lib
> > > > > <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/ca
> > > > > p_s
> > > > > md.lib>
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/ca
> > > > > p_s
> > > > > md.lib <https://github.com/pluggee/KiCADLibs/blob/master/sch/ca
> > > > > p_sm
> > > > > d.lib>>
> > > > >
> > > > > https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_p
> > > > > cb/
> > > > > electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
> > > > > <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_
> > > > > pcb
> > > > > /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>
> > > > >
> > > > > <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_
> > > > > pcb
> > > > > /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch
> > > > > <https://github.com/jim17/memtype/blob/master/schematic_
> > > > > pcb
> > > > > /electronic_design_kicad/electronic_design_kicad.sch>>
> > > > > ____________________________________________
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> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Remember The Past, Live The Present, Change The Future
> > > > > Those who look only to the past or the present are certain to
> > > > > miss
> > > > > the
> > > > > future [JFK]
> > > > >
> > > > > kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:kandrey89@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Live Long and Prosper,
> > > > > Andrey
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > <0001-Added-default-fields-not-affect-previous-
> > > designs.patch>_______________________________________________
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-Ben
Follow ups
References
-
More default fields in schematic
From: kristoffer Ödmark, 2018-05-20
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: Seth Hillbrand, 2018-05-20
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: Kristoffer Ödmark, 2018-05-20
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: José Ignacio, 2018-05-20
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: kristoffer Ödmark, 2018-05-20
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: Andrey Kuznetsov, 2018-05-20
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: Wayne Stambaugh, 2018-05-21
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: kristoffer ödmark, 2018-05-22
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Re: More default fields in schematic
From: Jeff Young, 2018-05-22
-
Re: More default fields in schematic
From: kristoffer ödmark, 2018-05-22
