Another idea would be to use the standard toolbar items, which can have both labels and icons - when the alt key is pressed, the shortcut key for that menu/button could be underlined, just as for menus is now. And yet another solution would be to show shortcuts with a sort of tooltips - and forgive me for saying that, don't want to hurt anyone - but for showing the hotkeys for multiple items the Office 2007 ribbon control is a good example. I can't stand the ribbon control, but the solution for showing tooltips is quite good IMHO. - see the crops attached On Tue, 2010-05-18 at 15:46 +1000, Luke Morton wrote: > On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 21:48 -0700, Tyler Brainerd wrote: > > Ah. Well, you're making me work for things, thats for sure. Ha. > > It's what I do ;) > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 9:37 PM, Luke Morton > > <luke.morton@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 20:38 -0700, Tyler Brainerd wrote: > > > Actually, I added a (extremely rough) mock up of what gcalc > > might look > > > > > > like. Basically, the most commonly used options ought to be > > > (categorically) available the easiest. > > > > > > I agree, although determining what's most commonly used is > > easier said > > than done--it depends heavily on the user's habits and their > > particular > > needs. > > > > > > Agreed. Thats why I started with the calculator here, and with the > > already partially simplified Nautilus-Elementary. > > > > > In a tool like a calculator that doesn't have a lot going on > > as far as > > > options its pretty easy to put these on a row of mode or > > view buttons. > > > everything else can be found in the 'gearbox' options menu. > > Roughly > > > > > like so:Calculator_027.jpg > > > > How would I access that with my keyboard? > > > > > This translates very well in simple apps, and with more > > work, could > > > work well for more complex apps as well. > > > With the keyboard shortcuts, particularly the insert > > command, > > > ironically enough I'm using chromium, which does not allow > > for that > > > command. > > > > > > The point of accessing the Insert menu (in Evolution) was to > > illustrate > > the discoverability of a feature without having to know its > > accelerator > > key ahead of time. > > > > > Presumably we could still allow similar behavior for common > > key > > > presses of that sort, > > > > > > I would expect items in the toolbar to have > > accelerators--especially in > > the absence of a menu. But how would I know what they were? > > And even if > > they were standardised (say the cog icon is in your example is > > accessible via Alt+S), how would I know what they were? > > > > > > Pressing alt brings up hovering indicators perhaps? I don't disagree > > that these things ought to be discoverable, but honestly keyboard > > accessibility is nowhere near my strong suit, as I rarely use only the > > keyboard so I really don't know how to make it work and what doesn't. > > I think IE7 had something like that ... No wait, it was a hidden menu > bar that became visible when holding Alt. > > I think IE now has a similar toolbutton/menu thing to Chromium, except > it uses labels instead of icons, thereby allowing for discoverability > and avoiding the issue of poor icon metaphors. > > > > and honestly some of it will be taken care of by a clean > > shearing of > > > commands that are used for actual action (i.e., in a file > > browser > > > relate to actual browsing instead of slightly less needed > > interface > > > editing like "reset view to defaults" or history clearing) > > and menu > > > items which do not directly relate to the task at hand. > > > > > > You lost me here. Are you making a case for well thought-out > > menus? If > > so then yes, I agree menus should be well thought-out. > > > > > > > > Um, yes. Well thought. :D. In the sense that chrome has "what I can do > > to this page" and "what I can do to the whole browser" as its two > > menus, then we would have "whats pertinent to the actions I am > > currently doing" and "what customizations to the nature of the program > > are available" > > > > > > > > > > > Again, Chrome is really a great example of giving context > > menus which > > > are very dependent on the area clicked, and two very sparse > > clean > > > menus, with all non-essential interface controls tucked > > away. > > > Accessible in 3 or less clicks, but away. In addition, this > > would > > > hopefully lower the levels of total overlap going on. > > > > > > None of the issues I raised pertain to clicking (using a > > pointing > > device). But you are right about the Chromium menus being well > > organised. And the use of context menus is good too. > > > > > > Fair enough. :P > > > > > > However, Chromium also highlights one of the issues I > > menioned: how do > > you open one of those menus without a mouse? I'll save you > > some > > frustration for the "Customise and Control Chromium" menu: > > it's Alt+F. I > > know that from trial and error--guessing key combinations > > until a menu > > popped up. I'm yet to figure out how to duplicate a tab. > > > > > > You bring up good points, further illustrating to me that my idea as a > > whole is likely suitable as a modification, not as an attempt to alter > > vanilla ubuntu. > > > > > > > > > On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Luke Morton > > > <luke.morton@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 18:47 -0700, Tyler Brainerd > > wrote: > > > > I know, I know, we just had an announcement about > > changing > > > menu's over > > > > to global menu's for the UNE. But seriously, how > > necessary > > > is 4 menus > > > > in the calculator application "gcalctool"? The > > only menu > > > options that > > > > have anything to do with actual calculator options > > are under > > > the view > > > > menu. The rest is silly and redundant. > > > > > > > > > > > > I just wrote a fairly long blog post on my blog > > here, along > > > with > > > > mockups and what not: > > > > > > > > > http://tjamesubuntu.blogspot.com/2010/05/re-thinking-desktop.html > > > > > > > > > > > > about how silly most apps menu's are. I'm hoping > > that we can > > > maybe > > > > pool some resources on looking at what is and what > > isn't > > > necessary in > > > > default applications in Ubuntu, although I'm not > > under any > > > impression > > > > that this will be something to be put directly in > > default > > > Ubuntu. > > > > However, I do think it is the sort of mod that can > > gain > > > traction > > > > similar to Nautilus-Elementary if we can get > > applications > > > repackaged > > > > with cleaned up and optimized menus. > > > > > > > > > "Cleaned up and optimised"; sounds like a good idea. > > How would > > > you do > > > that for the gcalctool menus? (They seem pretty good > > to me.) > > > > > > General comments: > > > (Pertaining to the removal of menus and replacement > > with > > > toolbar menus > > > as mentioned in your blog post.) > > > > > > 1. Menus provide access to functions that might be > > otherwise > > > obscured, > > > infrequently used or hard to access--especially for > > people who > > > cannot > > > use pointing devices. > > > > > > For example, I can tell that if I want to insert > > something > > > into this > > > email I can press Alt+I to get the insert menu, even > > though > > > I've never > > > used it before. If that menu were represented by an > > icon in a > > > toolbar, > > > how would I get to it without having to tab through > > the entire > > > interface? > > > > > > 2. Menus provide a convenient reference list of > > keyboard > > > accelerators. > > > If that menu were represented by an icon in a > > toolbar, how > > > would I get > > > to it without having to tab through the entire > > interface? > > > > > > Take gcalctool for example. If it didn't have a > > menu, and you > > > couldn't > > > use your mouse, how would you switch to a different > > mode? Quit > > > the > > > application? Input an ASCII character? > > > > > > 3. A menu by itself takes up less space than a > > toolbar by > > > itself > > > > > > Removing the menu in gcalctool in the same way that > > > Nautilus-Elementary > > > removes the menu would mean that we'd have to add a > > toolbar > > > for the > > > functions that have no-where else to go. (I don't > > think this > > > is > > > particularly important though.) > > > None of these are absolute barriers to your idea, > > but they are > > > things > > > that need to be considered/resolved. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > > Post to : ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > Post to : ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > Post to : ayatana@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
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