elementary-dev-community team mailing list archive

[Fabian Thoma <fabian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Ok guys,

I just peaked into my inbox and saw this whole rant about this pop up
again, so please guys, cool down.

Now to you Sergey, I realize you are very passionate about what you do, but
sometimes you are too passionate about it as well. Cool down, don't treaten
with you leaving before having a open discussion with everyone, not just
one person(in this case Dan). Because that surely pissed off the whole
council, multiple times by now, but I'm sure you are aware of that. And
actually that's a good thing, if you start to rant about something, we
really got to take care of it, we know that, and you leaving helps no one
in that situation.

I did actually read your funding document back in the day when you shared
it with us, and yes I did not reply, which maybe was a mistake.
I can tell you that 4 of the 7 techniques you are listing there are fully
underway, and have been even since before we got our rebranding by Ian Hex,
we already compiled Lists of what we want to have in our Store that will be
in the new Site when Luna launches, we plan on doing a Kickstarter(with a
surprise for all of you, I'm not going to tell it right now because we
decided to keep it a secret, sorry), when we actually have something to
give to people.
We did give all of this a lot of thought and actually dedicated quite some
council meetings to this, and when we have a final solution, or call it
concept, that we really want to pursue, we'll surely let you know.

That website design you are totally raging about is a start, we didn't even
make it to the backend of that, it is a mere design, nothing else right now.

But we think it's the way to go, it's a experiment for sure, but it's one
worth taking. If you didn't want to take the leap of faith from time to
time you wouldn't be with the elementary team to be totally honest here.

So I read your new document on the matter now Sergey, and I got to say,
nice arguments.
My opinion on this is Why not go with both? You hugely back the Free but
donate then model, but to be honest it didn't bring much money into our
bags, people even kept asking where to donate, even though it was right on
the Front page. The pay what you want Model will be a great fit for this
project, if you believe it or not, people are willing to pay for good
software, no matter if before or after, we should consider making the
experience to do so the main problem of this discussion, not the when.
We as a Open Source project also have a responsibility to teach people that
creating software takes time and costs money, a pay what you want model
perfectly captures this, we would actually explain the person what exactly
happens to that money, not only take the cash and say goodbye ;)

I hope this email still makes sense, as I deleted wrote deleted as the
discussion changed ;)

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Daniel Foré <daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Sorry I must have misunderstood the question. Can you rephrase it?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Scott Ringwelski <sgringwe@xxxxxxx>wrote:
>
>> That did not answer my question at all.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Daniel Foré <daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> And also has also been said before, absolutely nothing whatsoever is
>>> changing about our monetary model. We're still giving away elementary and
>>> we're still providing a way for people to make donations.
>>>
>>> Today you can download Jupiter for free from the homepage. Today, you
>>> can donate to support elementary from the homepage.
>>>
>>> For the next design, you can download Luna for free from the homepage.
>>> And you can also donate to support elementary from the homepage.
>>>
>>> Nothing has changed from a logistic perspective. The only thing that has
>>> changed is the design of the homepage. That is all.
>>>
>>> We're not changing to a pay-only model. And we don't have significant
>>> enough funds to even discuss how to divide them up at all.
>>>
>>> If did have significant funds, this is absolutely something we'd bring
>>> up to the mailing list as we would want as much input as possible on
>>> figuring out how to decide who gets hired first.
>>>
>>> But the design of the homepage is not something everyone needs to *vote*
>>> on before we can implement it.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Scott Ringwelski <sgringwe@xxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Putting the democratic issue aside for a moment, please explain this:
>>>>
>>>> 1. You have said numerous times how you would love to be able to pay
>>>> your developers.
>>>> 2. You just mentioned that it's best to have the people most involved
>>>> in the topic make the call.
>>>> 3. From this, we can clearly see that developers absolutely should be a
>>>> key part of the process of deciding how elementary will handle funding,
>>>> donations, etc. Yet, you somehow think that "this is a web design issue and
>>>> not something that needs to be run through you first for approval"? Now
>>>> that... that is absurd.
>>>>
>>>> Unless you plan to only pay yourself, this is absolutely something that
>>>> needs to be run through everybody. In fact, if there was one decision that
>>>> the whole elementary team should be involved in, it is this one.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Daniel Foré <daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes I am. I really think direct-democracy is just a bad idea.
>>>>> Historically, we've made good decisions by having the people most involved
>>>>> in the topic make the call.
>>>>>
>>>>> When we're talking about a decision around our developer story, It's
>>>>> best to consult with our developers.
>>>>>
>>>>> When we're talking about a decisions around our design story, it's
>>>>> best to consult with our designers.
>>>>>
>>>>> With our Web story, our web team.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our translations, our (admittedly new) translation team.
>>>>>
>>>>> Requiring that everyone have a say in everything is not only going to
>>>>> lead to un-informed decisions, but it's going to slow our process way down.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Scott Ringwelski <sgringwe@xxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan, are you asking why elementary should follow a democratic,
>>>>>> whole-team decision making process rather than a more centralized decision
>>>>>> making process?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Daniel Foré <daniel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it turns out, we have families and lives and jobs and
>>>>>>> responsibilities outside of elementary. That means that we're not always
>>>>>>> able to meet every week and discuss every issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my personal opinion, this is a web design issue and not something
>>>>>>> that needs to be run through you first for approval. But I'd be interested
>>>>>>> to find out from other people why they think we need to directly
>>>>>>> democratize our web design or any design for that matter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're upset because you can't get your demands met on a certain
>>>>>>> time schedule I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you. You may not be
>>>>>>> aware, but this week celebrates our independence in the US. So there's a
>>>>>>> lot of family flooding in and I'm super busy juggling my very extended
>>>>>>> family. I can guarantee I won't be able to make the meeting again this
>>>>>>> Saturday because it's also my mother's birthday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wish you luck in your next endeavor and hope you don't harbor any
>>>>>>> ill will towards elementary. You're always welcome back at any time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 7:05 AM, Сергей Давыдов <shnatsel@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay, it's been a week. In addition, a Council meeting should have
>>>>>>>> taken place three days ago. This seems to be quite enough time to
>>>>>>>> settle on something and write a reply.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To speed up the discussion, I stop pretending that everything is all
>>>>>>>> right and cease any work on elementary till I receive an answer to
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Sergey "Shnatsel" Davidoff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daniel Foré
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> elementaryos.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>>>>>>> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
>>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniel Foré
>>>>>
>>>>> elementaryos.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Daniel Foré
>>>
>>> elementaryos.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
>
> Daniel Foré
>
> elementaryos.org
>
>
> --
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> Post to     : elementary-dev-community@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~elementary-dev-community
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>


-- 
<http://elementaryos.org/>*Fabian Thoma* | *Council Member*
elementary OS
fabian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx / elementaryos.org