ubuntu-phone team mailing list archive

[Rasmus Eneman <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx>]

I seem to have misunderstood the whole discussion.
When I read it again I see what you mean and thinks
that we both wanted the same thing all the time.


2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>

> Nothing. Omar asked a question about a corner case. I answered him, and
> then you started saying things that made no sense as a response to what I
> was saying. My response applied only to that one device in question.
> On Jul 20, 2013 5:50 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Of course the desktop interface will support multiple windows. No one
>> have ever said otherwise?
>> The desktop experience will most probably be very similar to Unity7
>> except for the improved
>> indicators in Unity8.
>>
>> Canonical have already started that Ubuntu will be one code base,
>> regardless of the device
>> it's run on. Already today you can dynamically switch between mobile and
>> tablet interface in
>> Unity8 when the desktop interface is ready you will be able to switch
>> with that too. All
>> devices will of cource run appropriate interface.
>>
>> I can't really understand what you want to change?
>>
>>
>> 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>> I'm not talking about putting this on a 7" tablet. You haven't been
>>> listening to me.
>>>
>>> There are three form factors.
>>> -Desktop
>>> -Tablet
>>> -Phone
>>>
>>> We know what the tablet and phone Unity8 interfaces look like. We do not
>>> know what Unity8 for desktop will look like. There *will* be a version of
>>> it for desktop. That is not a question. The 20" tablet that is being
>>> discussed should run the desktop version of the interface because it is too
>>> large for the tablet interface to scale properly to it. The desktop
>>> interface is the appropriate choice regardless of whether the tablet is
>>> docked in to the AIO dock or the tablet is freestanding. It doesn't matter.
>>> It should always run the desktop interface because of how large it is. The
>>> desktop interface is different only by the fact that it has windows in it.
>>> I'm not changing anything there. It will be able to run the tablet apps. It
>>> will be able to run the phone apps. It will be able to run the legacy apps.
>>> A 7" tablet will of course run the tablet interface, not the desktop
>>> interface with a windowing interface.
>>>
>>> I never suggested that we change the tablet interface to use windows or
>>> be a desktop interface. I suggested that this special case use the desktop
>>> interface exclusively, instead of the tablet interface.
>>>  On Jul 20, 2013 5:34 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> All of those things are stuff you can do on the desktop interface.
>>>> Why wold it be so much better to do that on the Tablet interface?
>>>>
>>>> >-you can still maximize them to run them fullscreen, if you like
>>>> It isn't about that. It is about that you fundamentally would like to
>>>> change how the current interface works. You cant just add in multi
>>>> window.
>>>> You need a way to maximize/minimize windows, usually you do that
>>>> using buttons on a tool bar. By adding a tool bar that is always visible
>>>> you loose valuable screen space on a 7" tablet.
>>>> And also you would have to teach users how the multi windows
>>>> features work.
>>>>
>>>> What I'm saying is that if you want the desktop interface you should
>>>> use the desktop interface, you shouldn't make the tablet interface
>>>> become the desktop interface. You can run the touch apps in the
>>>> desktop interface aswell.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>
>>>>> Interacting with it as a tablet does not limit you to running one
>>>>> application as a time. LibreOffice and Eclipse may not be optimized for
>>>>> touch, but you could still run all of the touch optimized apps. Running
>>>>> them in windows you can move around would not be something to fear. It
>>>>> would be useful. If you *want* to run a nontouch optimized app, that's your
>>>>> problem. Having window management *will* happen regardless, for traditional
>>>>> desktops. Letting you use it on a 20" tablet would just be a good decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Desktop mode means you can run several touch optimized apps side by
>>>>> side
>>>>> -you optionally can run legacy, real-work applications like Eclipse
>>>>> -you can still maximize them to run them fullscreen, if you like
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suffering would be self inflicted. There is no downside, and an
>>>>> OSK can be used for anything. On my android tablet I have a keyboard
>>>>> designed for programming, and I've written code swiftly. A larger screen
>>>>> would be even better. I've written documents that are dozens of pages long
>>>>> on a touchscreen. To someone who is practiced with them, it's a breeze.
>>>>> Don't insult touchscreen interfaces just because you're not efficient with
>>>>> them.
>>>>>  On Jul 20, 2013 5:12 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> >Why would that be useful?
>>>>>> Because you are still interacting with it like a tablet, with touch.
>>>>>> Advanced interfaces like LibreOffice or Eclipse wouldn't work
>>>>>>  not because of the screen size but because of the input type.
>>>>>> And if you wants to use desktop applications, why wouldn't
>>>>>> you just use the desktop interface? The applications wouldn't
>>>>>> be easier to interact with just because the interface of the
>>>>>> desktop manager were fitted for touch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OSK is worthless for programming or writing documents, even if the
>>>>>> screen is 20".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't just add in multi-windows and totally change how you would
>>>>>> interact with the only argument being "It's BIG!". The input is still
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> equally limited and broken for desktop interfaces.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And no, in isn't Windows 8 all over again. Windows 8 is putting a
>>>>>> tablet
>>>>>> interface on the desktop. Unity is putting a tablet interface on a
>>>>>> tablet and
>>>>>> a desktop interface on a desktop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Without writing usecases for massive changes you are doing changes
>>>>>> for the sake of changing stuff, probably to the worse. Before you go
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> and totally change how one interface would work you need to have a
>>>>>> very clear plan of what you are doing and why you are doing that.
>>>>>> The latter part of that is why use cases would need to be written.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2013/7/20 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On a large display, there is very rarely enough content to use the
>>>>>>> whole screen. If you're using a 20" tablet, it's not for pleasure. It needs
>>>>>>> to use multiple windows. This applies to the keyboard as well. The keyboard
>>>>>>> would be too large to type on if you just stretched it out to a 20" screen.
>>>>>>> Why do you need to write a use case? This use case is plainly obvious. It
>>>>>>> would be wasteful to only allow one application on the screen at a time for
>>>>>>> large screens. Even the side stage isn't enough. It would be Windows 8 all
>>>>>>> over again to do that. Besides, we need to support the legacy applications
>>>>>>> like LibreOffice, and Eclipse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why do you want a single application to fill the whole screen at all
>>>>>>> times? Why would that be useful?
>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013 4:50 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The thing is, when you are using a tablet inteface. How would you
>>>>>>>> intercat with multiple windows?
>>>>>>>> We shouldn't add features just for the sake of features, if so we
>>>>>>>> would still be using the terminal
>>>>>>>> only as it's the only (yet?) invented interface that can do
>>>>>>>> anything. We don't want that
>>>>>>>> we want an interface that simple and easy to navigate if it looks
>>>>>>>> good that would be a bonus.
>>>>>>>> To do this we have to say, "this feature should be in because it's
>>>>>>>> needed and works". Not just
>>>>>>>> "this feature looks cool, lets add it".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Could someone write some good use cases for a multi window/more
>>>>>>>> advanced side stage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2013/7/20 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I still don't understand. Why do you want to go into tablet mode,
>>>>>>>>> since that only means everything is fullscreen, as far as we know. You can
>>>>>>>>> still maximize things and then they're essentially fullscreen, if that's
>>>>>>>>> what you want, but realistically.. why would you on a large screen?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013 1:49 PM, "Omar B." <estelar57@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> hmm, I believe we need to think more about the applications and
>>>>>>>>>> connected peripherals, than the desktop itself.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On the ASUS Transformer AiO, when the screen gets detached, it
>>>>>>>>>> surely becomes a big Tablet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So, I assume it will go from desktop mode to tablet mode (with
>>>>>>>>>> probably a possibility of manual override).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In such big tablet form factors I see the usefulness of
>>>>>>>>>> multi-window, re-sizing or a more feature-rich side stage being introduced
>>>>>>>>>> to the touch environment.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 23:30:11 -0500
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-phone] Multi-window support ?
>>>>>>>>>> From: coder543@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> To: estelar57@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> CC: ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What is the difference? We really don't know what unity 8 for the
>>>>>>>>>> desktop looks like. But, based on logical induction, the only significant
>>>>>>>>>> difference is that you can move things around and resize them as windows in
>>>>>>>>>> one, and they're all fullscreen in the other. You can still run the same
>>>>>>>>>> apps in desktop mode as in tablet mode, but more applications might be
>>>>>>>>>> available to desktop mode.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This isn't Windows. Canonical is striving towards Unity.
>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft chose a divided approach, with clear separation between desktop
>>>>>>>>>> and tablet.
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013 11:16 PM, "Omar B." <estelar57@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> >A 20" screen definitely qualifies for desktop mode. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> think it would be running tablet style at that point.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Then, I wonder what would be the case study for the ASUS
>>>>>>>>>> Transformer AiO.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just desktop mode?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hUPWgLXMBY
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.asus.com/AllinOne_PCs/ASUS_Transformer_AiO_P1801/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Rasmus Eneman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Rasmus Eneman
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Rasmus Eneman
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rasmus Eneman
>>
>


-- 
Rasmus Eneman