ubuntu-phone team mailing list archive

[Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>]

Yes. I'm sorry for how intense it got, we wanted the same thing the whole
time, but we were both confused as to what was going on.
On Jul 20, 2013 5:57 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I seem to have misunderstood the whole discussion.
> When I read it again I see what you mean and thinks
> that we both wanted the same thing all the time.
>
>
> 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>
>> Nothing. Omar asked a question about a corner case. I answered him, and
>> then you started saying things that made no sense as a response to what I
>> was saying. My response applied only to that one device in question.
>>  On Jul 20, 2013 5:50 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course the desktop interface will support multiple windows. No one
>>> have ever said otherwise?
>>> The desktop experience will most probably be very similar to Unity7
>>> except for the improved
>>> indicators in Unity8.
>>>
>>> Canonical have already started that Ubuntu will be one code base,
>>> regardless of the device
>>> it's run on. Already today you can dynamically switch between mobile and
>>> tablet interface in
>>> Unity8 when the desktop interface is ready you will be able to switch
>>> with that too. All
>>> devices will of cource run appropriate interface.
>>>
>>> I can't really understand what you want to change?
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>
>>>> I'm not talking about putting this on a 7" tablet. You haven't been
>>>> listening to me.
>>>>
>>>> There are three form factors.
>>>> -Desktop
>>>> -Tablet
>>>> -Phone
>>>>
>>>> We know what the tablet and phone Unity8 interfaces look like. We do
>>>> not know what Unity8 for desktop will look like. There *will* be a version
>>>> of it for desktop. That is not a question. The 20" tablet that is being
>>>> discussed should run the desktop version of the interface because it is too
>>>> large for the tablet interface to scale properly to it. The desktop
>>>> interface is the appropriate choice regardless of whether the tablet is
>>>> docked in to the AIO dock or the tablet is freestanding. It doesn't matter.
>>>> It should always run the desktop interface because of how large it is. The
>>>> desktop interface is different only by the fact that it has windows in it.
>>>> I'm not changing anything there. It will be able to run the tablet apps. It
>>>> will be able to run the phone apps. It will be able to run the legacy apps.
>>>> A 7" tablet will of course run the tablet interface, not the desktop
>>>> interface with a windowing interface.
>>>>
>>>> I never suggested that we change the tablet interface to use windows or
>>>> be a desktop interface. I suggested that this special case use the desktop
>>>> interface exclusively, instead of the tablet interface.
>>>>  On Jul 20, 2013 5:34 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All of those things are stuff you can do on the desktop interface.
>>>>> Why wold it be so much better to do that on the Tablet interface?
>>>>>
>>>>> >-you can still maximize them to run them fullscreen, if you like
>>>>> It isn't about that. It is about that you fundamentally would like to
>>>>> change how the current interface works. You cant just add in multi
>>>>> window.
>>>>> You need a way to maximize/minimize windows, usually you do that
>>>>> using buttons on a tool bar. By adding a tool bar that is always
>>>>> visible
>>>>> you loose valuable screen space on a 7" tablet.
>>>>> And also you would have to teach users how the multi windows
>>>>> features work.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I'm saying is that if you want the desktop interface you should
>>>>> use the desktop interface, you shouldn't make the tablet interface
>>>>> become the desktop interface. You can run the touch apps in the
>>>>> desktop interface aswell.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2013/7/21 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Interacting with it as a tablet does not limit you to running one
>>>>>> application as a time. LibreOffice and Eclipse may not be optimized for
>>>>>> touch, but you could still run all of the touch optimized apps. Running
>>>>>> them in windows you can move around would not be something to fear. It
>>>>>> would be useful. If you *want* to run a nontouch optimized app, that's your
>>>>>> problem. Having window management *will* happen regardless, for traditional
>>>>>> desktops. Letting you use it on a 20" tablet would just be a good decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Desktop mode means you can run several touch optimized apps side by
>>>>>> side
>>>>>> -you optionally can run legacy, real-work applications like Eclipse
>>>>>> -you can still maximize them to run them fullscreen, if you like
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any suffering would be self inflicted. There is no downside, and an
>>>>>> OSK can be used for anything. On my android tablet I have a keyboard
>>>>>> designed for programming, and I've written code swiftly. A larger screen
>>>>>> would be even better. I've written documents that are dozens of pages long
>>>>>> on a touchscreen. To someone who is practiced with them, it's a breeze.
>>>>>> Don't insult touchscreen interfaces just because you're not efficient with
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>  On Jul 20, 2013 5:12 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >Why would that be useful?
>>>>>>> Because you are still interacting with it like a tablet, with touch.
>>>>>>> Advanced interfaces like LibreOffice or Eclipse wouldn't work
>>>>>>>  not because of the screen size but because of the input type.
>>>>>>> And if you wants to use desktop applications, why wouldn't
>>>>>>> you just use the desktop interface? The applications wouldn't
>>>>>>> be easier to interact with just because the interface of the
>>>>>>> desktop manager were fitted for touch.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OSK is worthless for programming or writing documents, even if the
>>>>>>> screen is 20".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can't just add in multi-windows and totally change how you would
>>>>>>> interact with the only argument being "It's BIG!". The input is
>>>>>>> still as
>>>>>>> equally limited and broken for desktop interfaces.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And no, in isn't Windows 8 all over again. Windows 8 is putting a
>>>>>>> tablet
>>>>>>> interface on the desktop. Unity is putting a tablet interface on a
>>>>>>> tablet and
>>>>>>> a desktop interface on a desktop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Without writing usecases for massive changes you are doing changes
>>>>>>> for the sake of changing stuff, probably to the worse. Before you go
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> and totally change how one interface would work you need to have a
>>>>>>> very clear plan of what you are doing and why you are doing that.
>>>>>>> The latter part of that is why use cases would need to be written.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2013/7/20 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On a large display, there is very rarely enough content to use the
>>>>>>>> whole screen. If you're using a 20" tablet, it's not for pleasure. It needs
>>>>>>>> to use multiple windows. This applies to the keyboard as well. The keyboard
>>>>>>>> would be too large to type on if you just stretched it out to a 20" screen.
>>>>>>>> Why do you need to write a use case? This use case is plainly obvious. It
>>>>>>>> would be wasteful to only allow one application on the screen at a time for
>>>>>>>> large screens. Even the side stage isn't enough. It would be Windows 8 all
>>>>>>>> over again to do that. Besides, we need to support the legacy applications
>>>>>>>> like LibreOffice, and Eclipse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why do you want a single application to fill the whole screen at
>>>>>>>> all times? Why would that be useful?
>>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013 4:50 PM, "Rasmus Eneman" <Rasmus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The thing is, when you are using a tablet inteface. How would you
>>>>>>>>> intercat with multiple windows?
>>>>>>>>> We shouldn't add features just for the sake of features, if so we
>>>>>>>>> would still be using the terminal
>>>>>>>>> only as it's the only (yet?) invented interface that can do
>>>>>>>>> anything. We don't want that
>>>>>>>>> we want an interface that simple and easy to navigate if it looks
>>>>>>>>> good that would be a bonus.
>>>>>>>>> To do this we have to say, "this feature should be in because it's
>>>>>>>>> needed and works". Not just
>>>>>>>>> "this feature looks cool, lets add it".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Could someone write some good use cases for a multi window/more
>>>>>>>>> advanced side stage?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2013/7/20 Josh Leverette <coder543@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I still don't understand. Why do you want to go into tablet mode,
>>>>>>>>>> since that only means everything is fullscreen, as far as we know. You can
>>>>>>>>>> still maximize things and then they're essentially fullscreen, if that's
>>>>>>>>>> what you want, but realistically.. why would you on a large screen?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>>>> Josh
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2013 1:49 PM, "Omar B." <estelar57@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> hmm, I believe we need to think more about the applications and
>>>>>>>>>>> connected peripherals, than the desktop itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On the ASUS Transformer AiO, when the screen gets detached, it
>>>>>>>>>>> surely becomes a big Tablet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, I assume it will go from desktop mode to tablet mode (with
>>>>>>>>>>> probably a possibility of manual override).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In such big tablet form factors I see the usefulness of
>>>>>>>>>>> multi-window, re-sizing or a more feature-rich side stage being introduced
>>>>>>>>>>> to the touch environment.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2013 23:30:11 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ubuntu-phone] Multi-window support ?
>>>>>>>>>>> From: coder543@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> To: estelar57@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> CC: ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What is the difference? We really don't know what unity 8 for
>>>>>>>>>>> the desktop looks like. But, based on logical induction, the only
>>>>>>>>>>> significant difference is that you can move things around and resize them
>>>>>>>>>>> as windows in one, and they're all fullscreen in the other. You can still
>>>>>>>>>>> run the same apps in desktop mode as in tablet mode, but more applications
>>>>>>>>>>> might be available to desktop mode.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't Windows. Canonical is striving towards Unity.
>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft chose a divided approach, with clear separation between desktop
>>>>>>>>>>> and tablet.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013 11:16 PM, "Omar B." <estelar57@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >A 20" screen definitely qualifies for desktop mode. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> think it would be running tablet style at that point.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then, I wonder what would be the case study for the ASUS
>>>>>>>>>>> Transformer AiO.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just desktop mode?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hUPWgLXMBY
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.asus.com/AllinOne_PCs/ASUS_Transformer_AiO_P1801/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>>> Post to     : ubuntu-phone@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-phone
>>>>>>>>>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Rasmus Eneman
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Rasmus Eneman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Rasmus Eneman
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rasmus Eneman
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Rasmus Eneman
>